And in this place, in this time, it's a shadow of what it was.

check out your dollar bills. go to a public meeting or most any kind sport event. check out the amount of air time religious "leaders" get to talk about politics (!) and world events.

it is everywhere, constantly. for fuck's sake I have had to vote in churches. I mean nice of them to donate (I assume) the space but WTF? would most mainstream Christians feel comfortable going into a building that made them feel uncomfortable to complete a civic duty? (trying to think of a good example and my strange mind just keeps going to some skeevey dark bar or a swingers club or something LOL)

I think some type of large common room? these were modern buildings, not any kind of old historic structures. I don't think any kind of podium/or whatever you call it where the pastor/priest addresses the members during services was present, but there were crosses and other religious symbols on the walls.

I think I have voted in three different churches in my life, and now we usually go to a school (a whole other uncomfortable! LOL, still afraid of the principal )

with a church.

It made me uncomfortable, as we filed past the customers getting their nails done. It was downright bizarre, actually.

Later my polling place shifted to a car dealership, where we studied the new Chryslers while waiting in line to do our civic duty.

Such is Los Angeles.

interesting. and a nail salon? wtf?

when we lived in the historic district of our city. (That was back when everything was "downtown" and there was only one suburb(!)

I've voted in schools, the regional medical center, a music store, the County Admin Bldg. and probably a few other places I don't recall. My current precinct polling place is the Episcopal Church in my neighborhood, but I usually vote early and catch the mobile polls at my school's library. Last election, they were in the lobby of the art building where my ceramics studio is, so that was really convenient.

The church is simply providing space for a polling station. My parish does so, rent free. I assure you that if you were to vote there, no one would jump out and try to convert you to Catholicism.

for whatever reason (some people won't set foot in Walmart, for example. others might never go into a bar or nightclub. maybe a pet store that has reptiles on prominent display. whatever, just think of some location that makes YOU, personally uncomfortable) and think about having to go there to vote.

no it isn't the end of the world for me to enter church property, but that is one of hundreds of small examples of something that is NOT ME that get ASSUMED to be fine and normal by the majority of the population.

el_bryanto mentioned something below that I hadn't thought of in a while. being elected to major office. are there any self-identified atheists in congress? I have no idea, but I bet it is easier to be Muslim than athiest and get elected in the US.

I love going into churches and cathedrals and all kinds of places of worship. I am thoroughly intrigued by them, large and small. But my husband feels very uncomfortable and always sits outside while I do this. I think he is really missing out on things, but he just won't go in.

I have voted in churches before but only in some kind of common area, not a sanctuary or anything. It looked and felt a lot like a school to me.

I'm not sure what would be truly neutral other than a public school, but that can be very disruptive as most elections are during the week.

While you are right that religion pervades our culture and society, sometimes I think we have to choose our battles.

especially if it is an active place of worship. I get over it, obviously, but the hesitation/urge not to is often present. They are places I know I do not belong.

of course it is not any huge battle, in fact I rarely say anything, but if the opportunity arises - like if someone actually ASKS like this OP, then I figure I will take the chance to express it, if for no other reason than to bring awareness to others. That is one of the problems with any type of privilege - lack of awareness that it even exists.

Most people probably don't think twice about voting in a church, so I totally agree that you should bring it to others attention when you have the opportunity. This is true for all kinds of things.

I'm still not sure what would be a neutral place though

matter to the hungry person who doesn't have a dollar for a Bargain Burger.

Or to a woman or LGBT child who needs bus fare to get out of the house and away from an abuser.

Just personally, I wish they'd get the portraits of slaveholders and war criminals off the currency.

for the iconography of a dollar bill to become a concern.

And there's certainly no religious privilege on DU.

I come from a family of very lapsed and unbelieving catholics so religion is not very big in my family.

I think about 90% of this atheist persecution whine is BS. During most of the time I lived in one of the most conservative religious areas of the state and was quite open about my view of God's non existence and never was I received as other than someone with a different outlook, never ostracized by friends or coworkers never threatened in any way. Did I go out of my way to show how stupid I thought believers were did I express disgust and how put upon I was by seeing or hearing religious symbols or speech, No, so maybe that's a reason some should seriously think about. I have seen the opinion surveys and read the articles about real threats and ill feeling towards some activists and I don't discount these events I do however doubt the prevalence and magnitude of this persecution of atheists. It is highly possible that I was the luckiest atheist in America and have lived a charmed and sheltered life God works in mysterious ways I guess.

have no issues. I guess it depends on your neighborhood.

to other people. For example, any time there's a Texas-bashing thread, you'll see plenty that will post how badly they were treated during their visit/stay, or the hell-on-earth they had to endure while they lived here for whatever reason.

All too often, what we learn after a little prodding, is that they presented themselves to everyone with a major attitude. And then they wonder where all that Southern/Texas hospitality went when people were rude in return.

Attitude is everything. Don't be an asshole to people about every subject, and you'll find you can even get along with evangelical republicans

and for Jews to a lesser extent. Not so much, though, if you are muslim or mormon or any number of other religions. In fact, most recent polling data would indicate that being muslim puts you lower on the totem poll than having no beliefs at all.

I do think it's important to recognize that and be sensitive to it.

However, it's most definitely not a point of privilege in some environments, DU being one of them.

Also, I think where one is on the privilege ladder is determined by a whole slew of factors, some of which are much more profound than religion. Everyone individual is somewhere on that ladder and no single attribute is the reason.

I also think it does not exist here at DU.

I think there is more tolerance and acceptance of other religions or no religion in NY, but I think privilege is still there. Just think of the way the city honors and accommodates christian holidays. Despite the large jewish population, there is no such accommodation made for jewish holidays.

I agree that there is no privilege on DU because the religious that participate in matters concerning religion do not outnumber the non-religious participants. Plus it is pretty clear who is loudest.

Those that claim that there is some kind of anti-atheist agenda or prejudice on the site really have a distorted vision. I would bet that the data would support no such thing if one looked at numbers of alerts and results of those alerts. But the fantasy is fairly well embedded and not likely to change.

Unfortunately, the DU dynamic may keep religious believers from being as sensitive as they might be to the privilege that exists outside the site.

At least up until recently.

But yes it is difficult for me to see it.

That makes no sense. If a school were banning religious symbols, how could they justify banning one but not the other?

Muslim and Jewixh religious symbols were allowed. This was Board of Education policy.

(including politicians who are judges) frequently don't.

Glad to see you back in this group. While you're here, would you take a look at my post on possession a bit down the line? I'd like to know what a professional thinks on the question.

The notion of religious privilege on DU is more than a fantasy. It is a carefully crafted construct.

I do think the notion of religious privilege on DU is a construct, though I'm not sure it has been that carefully crafted. It's just a winning whine.

that ensure I don't have to move my car. I don't give a crap if they're religious or secular. Bring them on!!!

the majority of New Yorkers' behavior.

I got to get up to move the fucking car.

I'll go meet them after work. Wait! There's no fucking parking there!

Fucking Jersey plates.

The bastard who took my spot has a Nassau sticker!

Shit, I got to set the alarm to move the fucking car.

Unless you are fabulously wealthy and can afford a garage, having a car makes no sense at all.

Is there anywhere one needs to go that would require a vehicle?

I live in Brooklyn and by a train but other parts of the city is not accessible by public transit.

the changing sides of the street thing is less of an issue, right?

I used to drive a cab out of LIC and after dropping people off at bars and restaurants all night I had to walk over to the el and freeze my nuts off waiting for the train. I had dark thoughts.

I have some crazy memories of riding around with him at night. They are experiences I will never, ever forget.

She is second on my list after Bonnie Raitt.

I love cabs!

Streets are empty, bars are still open, the invaders are gone. That was my favorite time to drive around the city.

The FDR, the Harlem River Drive, and the West Side Highway all used to be connected in one unbroken loop. Once I drove around the island three times in a row without hitting a single light.

When I worked at Adam's Apple, I used to walk home. There is something absolutely magical about the city at that time of night.

If I ever felt anxious, I would just start trotting, but I don't think I was ever in danger.

The closer to a generic protestant faith you practice, the more normal you are seen as being. A Catholic, a Mormon, a Jehovah's Witness, and so on, will have to explain themselves and their faith more regularly, but generally won't have too much trouble. Non-Christians it depends on the community. Anti Semitism isn't nearly the problem it once was, but is still around, and I don't know if I even need to mention what Muslims have to put up with. And of course Atheists are seen as inherently immoral and unworthy of public office.

So yes Mainstream Christian privilege definitely exists.

Bryant

the freedom to be completely unaware of privilege and have that lack of awareness not affect your life negatively is also a privilege.

There's a church practically on every corner, so no matter where a Christian is, they can be confident that they will have a place to be with like-minded people and discuss spiritual matters if they wish. Other religious groups and atheists have to worry about whether they'll be able to find a group in a given place.

Christians can wear the symbol of their faith with confidence in public, knowing that there is a very small chance of being socially penalized for doing so. Other faiths take a larger chance.

As per a recent survey, Christians don't suffer a social penalty when marrying into a family. Atheists do.

As someone else said, points of privilege often act as blinders.

For over a century, the US government outlawed and actively suppressed us. At Wounded Knee, the Seventh US Cavalry butchered 300 men, women and children who were travelling peaceful to a religious gathering. More than half a century later, when my grandfather held Ceremony, my uncles and older male cousins all carried rifles or shotguns in case the white Baptist folk down the road became "agitated." Dress code for women and kids was "something you can run in."

Now, of course, we're "fashionable." The problem is not finding a safe place to hold Ceremony but fielding earnest inquiries from white wannabes who want to convert. We tend to discourage that pretty strongly, some teachers more than others. (The absolute surest way to get turned down is to claim that "My grandmother was a Cherokee/Lakota/Apache/Whatever Princess.&quot

Is it possible for those "white wannabes" to become legitimate, in your opinion? Or will it always be cultural appropriation?

but it does happen. It's not unlike converting to Judaism. There's a fairly lengthy process of discernment, prayer and study with an elder.

My personal feeling is that the Native American spiritual heritage is a great gift, and gifts are to be shared with those who truly desire them.

It's very individual beyond that, depending on what the person's gifts and interests may be.

I learned this in the religion room.

Is it just that we are too stupid without their guidance?

Bryant

I love how some of them say they coukd care less about this group but seem to be knowing whats going on here.

Can't really blame them for that if they don't create a disruption; some of us presumably go over to the AA forum.

Bryant

It is often very difficult for those with positions of privilege to recognize it and it is highly likely that a group of people who share a certain position to affirm to each other that there is no such position in their case.

While it is possible to have a conversation about it, there is a risk that it will be very lopsided and not reflect the POV of those that do not share that position.

Of course, I can't speak for the person who said this, but I think this may have been his point.

and come back to correct himself. I think we did fine.

It's really hard to isolate out a single factor and sometimes a single factor is used as a weapon. That, of course, makes people defensive.

We are all extremely privileged. The degrees of separation among those who are on this site are minuscule.

But it's still important to recognize that some groups are not privileged in certain areas and to be particularly sensitive to that.

The question of religious privilege on this site is bogus, but in this country it is not.

Because to some in the Religion Forum, just choosing to have a religion or to be a believer is an act of self-indulgence. Religious privilege clearly exists (and is perhaps better labeled Christian Privilege when discussing the US), and we need to be aware of how that religious privilege can have a negative effect on our politics and our society.

But if you discuss it in the religion forum, it will just turn to a discussion of how Christians/Believers shouldn't be allowed to be offended when their beliefs are mocked or their characters impugned.

Bryant

as self-indulgence so much as self-delusion. Given the almost daily tantrums from that quarter, none of them sees any problem with self-indulgence.

But I do think that they believe that what we believers, even liberal believers, are doing is morally wrong. They often try to cloud this in a smokescreen by pretending that believers argue for governing on religious principals (which we rarely if ever do) and the like. But even when you strip away all the rationales for our beliefs, they still feel like we are immoral.

If you believe something to be self-evidently true (and they believe that the non-existence of God is self evidently true), and then you note that there are people who don't agree that that thing is self-evidently true, than you have a few ways to categorize those who don't believe the way you do.

1. Ignorance - they don't have the information see the truth.

2. Craziness or Stupidity - their brains don't process information correctly.

3. Corruption - they refuse to acknowledge the truth because they see some benefit from not accepting it.

Most believers who spend a lot of time in the religion forum dispel #1 pretty quickly, which leaves them declaring us deluded or corrupt. And I think that's why their arguments against believers take on such moral fervor; it's not just that we are wrong or deluded, it's that we choose to be deluded.

Of course there is a 4th option, and that is to open yourself up to the possibility that what is right for you might not be right for someone else and to respect a diversity of beliefs; but I don't think that option is available to the people we are talking about.

Bryant

only attempting to understand why some felt that this group couldn't adequately address it.

I'm just assuming that those who are criticizing our decision to discuss it here feel that we need to discuss it in the religion forum under proper supervision.

Bryant

do any such thing.

Believe me I do but I don't think it exists here and those claiming it are not proving it.

It just doesn't exist here and claiming it does does not help anyone.

Just a rant for this group.

It was said over their if we question them on calling us deluded we are showing our religious entitlment.

What do the members of this group think?

Please refrain from using names if you respond. I am using this existing thread so as not to start a new one and not start issues again.

So please keep it about religious entitlment here at DU.

Because we don't really know; we know that some atheists at DU and some believers at DU complain of being second class citizens here. I've certainly noted that posting attacks on religion, even in GD, sometimes goes ignored. But they may have a point when their posts are alerted on and regularly face a hostile reaction. So it's hard to say.

Every time one does a religious demographics thread at DU though Atheism and Agnosticism (which aren't the same thing but are often two separate choices) usually poll higher than any individual faith.

Bryant

what they mean and sometimes juries don't.

They have themselves to blame for that.

GD religion threads always go downhill and turns into lets get religion. That is why the adminx don't want it there.

Personally I could care less they linked to me. Did you see the next response?

Apparently we can't discuss it without Guidance. And look how we get compared to the klan.

Exactly like that.

Did you know rug that when we defend ourselves here from the delusion argument we are just tapping into our religious privilege.

Don't you just feel so ashamed rug? I don't know how I keep my head up.

It does kind of underline the mentality of the Atheists at DU - as do a few other comments. The fact that believers aren't shunned and driven out of decent society at DU is proof that religious privilege exists at DU.

If religious privilege didn't run DU than believers would be ashamed and embarrassed to admit they are believers. Or at least that's how it seems.

Bryant

Probably to some degree. Depends on where you live. In a multi-cultural city like NYC? Less than in the Bible Belt. But, still, I have somewhat non-religious friends who identify as Jewish or Catholic culturally. They seem shocked when friends claim atheism. And that always surprises me because I don't think they spend much time considering their religious backgrounds.

But, then again, I don't know their minds. Maybe they do.

On DU? The privilege of being religious consists of mockery. But, honestly, don't let em get your goat.

This is just plain ridiculous.

We are accused of something and if we defend ourselves we are showing our privilege.

I think this is just a game at this point and I refuse to play.

If someone over there wants a reall discussion I will participate but this has turned into a lets insult believers fest and I want no part of it.

I wasn't even aware that it had been alerted on. I'd be curious to read what the jurors said about it, if anything.

Someone sent me the results but I just felt no need to keep them.

That was completely unfair.

there's no rational argument for the proposition that atheists are mentally ill by virtue of mentally ill, unless you can prove that spirituality is part of mental health (which would be a tough get).

Believers are believers because they have had an experience with something divine or spiritual (I know there are religions and belief systems that don't require that - but I'm talking about the majority here). Atheists haven't experienced the divine, and as such they deny that such experiences are possible, which is why they hold that believers are suffering from delusions.

But there's nothing about Atheism that leads directly to mental illness that I can see.

Bryant

Thanks and I hope things calmed down.

And yes the lurker took the lesson well.

I have a little experience over there myself.

Just a shame that they weren't listening.

Richard Burton did it better, though.

They don't make them like Burton and O'Toole sny more.