The church’s mind game reminder that you are nothing and they are your only ticket to any kind of afterlife.

then they had a falling out. Personally, I am an atheist ex-Catholic, so no bigotry toward other Christian denominations intended.

as to what Ash Wednesday means. Anyway, the rite probably has at least some roots in Judaism and its tradition of reflection and repentance. Given that Christianity is an Abrahamic religion, it makes sense.

Go to love the passive-aggressive insinuation.

My comment still stands, though. Hope I answered the OP's question to their satisfaction.

when addressing someone as a newbie on this site is to assume people who post are liars because you disagree with their view?

Also, I literally quoted the Old Testament "Thou art dust, and to dust thou shall return" from Genesis 3:19 as the source of what is said when ashes are applied, and somehow you view this as unsatisfactory.

The you repeat your insinuation that I am lying about having been raised Catholic.

My, aren't you the charmer.

Last edited Tue Dec 22, 2020, 06:52 PM - Edit history (1)

I registered during GWB's first term. I was locked out during the great hack of 2016 and just recently decided to re-register on another name, similar. I seem to remember the actual words during the dispensation of ashes is, "Remember man that thou art dust and unto dust you shall return." Surprises me you didn't use those words. But I'll take your word for it that you are an ex-Catholic because I simply have nothing else to go on. Strange to me, too, that you'd be an atheist commenting in the Interfaith group, since you have no belief.

That aside, simply quoting the old testament was insufficient, in my estimation, since the original poster may indeed have no religious training and a bible verse may mean absolutely nothing to them. Hence, I thought more explanation was needed. Your original post mostly announced your anger with the church, which is certainly your right and stems from your own experience, likely. But the original poster was simply asking for the origin of Ash Wednesday, not your opinion of the church. btw, the Orthodox Church grew concurrently with the Roman church, dating back to about 33 A.D., so the Roman Church cannot be blamed for "everything" when it comes to Christianity. Have a good day.

Which would make sense, since Christianity is an Abrahamic religion. Ash Wednesday, and lent, is supposed to be a time of reflection, repentance and fasting. The ashes are a symbol of death and repentance. Muslims do not observe Ash Wednesday, but they do fast during the month of Ramadan.

and appreciate your response to the OP.

I grew up in a Protestant denomination that did not follow the practice of ashes on the forehead, although they do it now. It never made sense to me as a child when I saw Catholic friends with ashes. Now, as you said, many denominations do it, besides Roman Catholics.

Your explanation of roots in Judaism makes sense. Sack cloth and ashes as symbols of penitence are mentioned in Judaic scripture and the Christian Old Testament. Ash Wednesday is the start of Lent, a time for self-reflection and penitence.

Last edited Tue Dec 22, 2020, 09:34 PM - Edit history (1)

And Islam, which of course is an Abrahamic religion. I imagine non-believers would find some value in self-reflection and even penitence in some situations.

It's too bad schools don't offer religious studies. Religion, whether one believes or not, had and has so much influence on culture, and a basic knowledge is a good idea for everyone.

Thanks for your nice reply.

benefit people in understanding the cultural role of religions. But I can foresee problems that would come out of trying to do it.

Many atheists would complain that children were being taught religion and would miss the difference between being taught ABOUT religion and being taught to FOLLOW a religion. And, people of various religions and sects within religions would complain about children being exposed to other views.

In my public school, we learned about the Protestant Reformation since it had such a strong influence on European history. Growing up in a Protestant family, I had already learned about it. Our teacher was Catholic and taught it from a Catholic perspective, misrepresenting a few historical facts. Some teachers cannot maintain objectivity.

In my home state of PA, it was law that public school teachers start each day by reading a chapter from the King James Protestant Bible. Catholic students rightly objected. When SCOTUS struck down the law, the pastor of our church supported the ruling in his sermon by reminding people that it is the responsibility of parents and religious institutions, not schoolteachers, to teach their faith to their own children, in order to preserve religious liberty.

But, for some subjects, learning about a religion is necessary. When in college, I did some practice teaching sessions for middle school Spanish classes. It was spring, so my lesson plans included Spanish and Latin American customs regarding Easter. It is nearly impossible to teach Spanish without references to religion since it is so much a part of Spanish history, culture, and language. Numerous Spanish idioms are based on religious stories and customs. Some are Christian and some are Islamic. I was concerned that some parents might object, but the supervising teacher agreed with me on the need to explain the sources and history and said she would handle the parents.

On Buddhism, I had a very hyper, easily agitated supervisor once who started studying Buddhism when she dated a Buddhist. It's one of the few times that I saw a really visible, measurable change in a person as a result of religion.

both religious and non religious.

I minored in anthropology and enjoyed learning about and comparing various religious perspectives and their influece on societies in both directions, as cultural expression and as influence on cultural practices and perceptions.

as a conquest excuse, yes, it did spread through Europe as a carrier or co-exister with western civilization. But Western civilization existed before Christianity. Then Greco-Roman gods and beliefs mingled with Zoroastrianism, Judaism, and other Middle Eastern belief systems to produce various early forms of Xtianity. The Roman Catholic one dominated western Europe, with an influence from the others.

I think that people who complain about religion causing wars and genocides often have cause and effect reversed. Many times, religions are genuine expressions of or spiritual searches for personal meaning and guidance on living with others. Political leaders can use religion as an excuse to carry out political agendas.

I see religion in many layers. The most obvious layer is literal, linear, and often historical. It carries cause-effect beliefs that are somewhat magical. Say the right prayers, offer the right sacrifice, and all will be well. When tge formula doesn't work, people find excuses to preserve their perspective, or turn against former beliefs. It's often a child's view of religion that people outgrow and then they reject all faith as childish.

Another layer of religion is an expression of psychological, social, and personal "truths" or truisms about life, expressed in story form for meaning and memory. We recognize both higher and baser sides to human nature. Genesis expresses this metaphorically as man being formed from the dust of the earth and given life through the breath of God. Tribal religions in the Americas, Africa, and Asia have legends or sacred stories about people's relationships to each other and nature that represent the same kind of metaphorical meaning, but we oftwn miss that because we don't understand the spefic symbols in other societies.

A still deeper level offers guidelines for not only interactions with each other, but for individual and social spiritual growth and development that brings insights, inner peace, moral values beyond simple obedience to rules.

There are many more approaches to religion and layers of understanding involved than I want to get into right now. People find for themselves whatever level of belief or disbelief suits them.

Christianity because it is what I grew up with. Whether I had a natural inclination toward spirituality or whether it was introduced to me in religion, I don't know. But as an adult, when I could no longer accept a literal approach to religious tenets, I leaned toward an agnostic perspective.

The more I learned about the religions of other cultures, the better I understood that religious stories and beliefs are more meaningful when not taken literally. A literal approach misses the forest for the trees. The stories are meant to convey lessons, values, paths for introspection, and ways of living with others. There is a richness of meaning in many religious stories that can't exist in science because science strives for objectivity but religion deals with the subjectivity of personal and interpersonal views.

The traditions and rituals preserve a sense of continuity even though they modify gradually as societies grow and change. They invoke a spirit of awe, shared perspectives and values, reverence and respect for values.

But, they can go off the rails, too, in what they teach as values or how they practice their traditions. Common sense judgment and reality checks on what are the consequences of beliefs and practices are essential. All faiths tend to have narrow, fundamentalist, literal followers as well as moderate and liberal ones. Christianity, like some other faiths, has many branches to choose from and many approaches to faith. There are many paths to spirituality, some religious and some not.

For me, religion provides a community of shared perspectives on living and growing, with traditions and celebrations as guides. It is, for me, much more metaphorical than literal.

degrees of significance in the difference between details. But it is hard to see the importance of the details as significant enough for the wars fought over them.

Most of those wars originated as political power struggles that used religion as an excuse. Example: Martin Luther's religious reform ideas were sincere on his part, but taken up by German princes as a means of gaining political independence from Roman influence.

And although Luther's religious views came from a serious effort at finding spiritual answers, it seems like the questions were a result of a psychological struggle caused by a domineering and sometimes abusive father.

We visited a Jewish Temple, Buddhist Temple, a Quaker Meeting House, Japanese Green Tea Ceremony at Japan House, Dorthy Day's Catholic Worker.
We didn't go to a Mosque but we read The Koran.
Read the Bhagavad Gita.

He, the professor was a Quaker and the College's draft counselor!

(aw, dang, I didn't realize how old this thread was)