Rest is key to a healthy immune system.

and your explanation and complex opinion is...…..

is tiring... go ahead you know the drill.

....

Maybe it will start sinking in to them.

which was all about the so-called class struggle. And in those days that movement, such as it was, was mostly run by young white guys. The civil rights movement was on a parallel track and included leftist positions (which is one reason MLK was investigated by Hoover's Communist-hunting FBI), but it wasn't all tied up with the absurd notion that racism would go away if everybody had an equal amount of money. The bros still don't seem to have figured out their own white privilege.

in the case of Barack Obama. He is educated, rich, and held the title of most powerful man in the world. Yet he still faced and continues to face racism. His money didn’t save him from bad treatment. That’s what Bernie is missing with his rhetoric.

It was begun by white males, and it was white males who promoted it. That has not changed.

I remember my time in the anti-war organizing circles in the DC area. All white guys in all leadership positions. Women were not part of leadership, almost universally. It was a white man's movement.

I also remember standing at the back of the crowd in Montgomery, Alabama on a day in 1965, listening to Dr. King give his "How Long? Not Long." speech. I was 19 years old, a white kid from California, who came to Selma in a 1953 Chrysler that was on its last legs. I came because I knew history was being made and I wanted to be part of that. I was moved by that speech, and asked an older black man near me, "What can I do to help?" That man, whose name I do not know, said, "Listen, son. Just listen and learn."

I learned that day that I did not understand things very well. I couldn't help, really, but I could listen. So, I did. I still am. But I will never be anything but a white guy, with a white guy's poor understanding, even if I listen and learn. Neither can Bernie Sanders. Both he and I are blocked from fully understanding because of our privilege. I admit it. Bernie does not.

I am an organic plant breeder and farmer. But as years have passed I have been kind of ruminating on the profound differences between those growing commodity crops (such as cotton, rice, wheat, sugar beets, dry beans) and those growing the more valuable crops ( fruits, vegetables, nuts). And how different the cultures are between organic commodity crop growers and organic valuable crop producers. As well as the differences between the specialty versus commodity growers among the conventional producers.

The differences between poverty by choice versus poverty by design is something that continues to capture my attention. It is visible in the farming communities as well as the political.

So ahead of its time that Americans are still catching up with the corporate evils identified back then -- corporate hierarchalization dispersed through influencers, leading to class war (yes, class war is still a thing), and how racial oppression and economic oppression intersect. Most Americans didn't see class war back then, but that's when it explained first and best what's happened historically to this country.

Not sure that Bernie supporters don't get their own white privilege; if they do, they don't acknowledge it while messaging more economic and racial equality to the potential voters.

Americans are sorting these issues out better than Bernie, now, anyway, and will vote accordingly.

And for all the attention to issues of inequality the various movements brought to light, there was also a crazy amount of bullshit. Some of the worst racism and sexism existed in the "New Left" movement, and in some quarters that doesn't seem to have changed much. Then, as now, there was a lot of yapping about the oligarchy but it was mostly yapping while the womenfolk brought the yappers their coffee and ran the mimeograph machines.

Last edited Wed Mar 25, 2020, 01:27 PM - Edit history (1)

aspects is unfair. In the 60's I worked off campus at a school, bar/deli, nights at 2 o'clock club and 4 o'clock private club near the capital. I knew Black Panthers, racists, and townies who felt the newness of the era, regardless of their circumstances.

I saw that era completely shift away from the values of the Eisenhower era. Everyone in it -- from national media to universities to families splitting up over Vietnam, even the WWII vets like my father and stepfather
-- knew we'd never to back to the 50's. History books support this view.

There are people in every generation who pander to ignorance and foment hate; that takes no effort, no matter the circumstance, and are the emo-mental habits of the lazy. So it might not seem that all that yapping changed much, but it does seem that the 3rd largest country on the planet takes longer to reach awareness. Some (not all) of the ideas of the 60's were so far ahead of their time that we're still trying to catch up to implementing them because they influence our current politics.

History has shown the 60's at its best and worst, and I've come to learn that an era is most helpful when presented at its best, along with its cautionary tales.

So, likely due to a difference in our lived experience, I just have to disagree with you about the 60's.

their privilege and we were supposed to reward them for this.

Somehow they believed that we had it easier than they had it. The misogyny was and remains so disgusting and disheartening in the far left.

Notice how most of those guys still defend porn as free speech? When I was arguing about getting rid of hate speech in the early ‘90’s- aka Rush Limbaugh- they were defending him because nobody could do anything to curtail “free speech”! If hate speech could be tamped down, then thy might come after their porn, which somehow isn’t hate speech against women. Right.

Bernie's failure to gain more acceptance within the AA community is an outgrowth of this myopic view of racism and injustice in America. I commend Mineral Man for being so woke on these issues. Very few White men his age are.

My hat is off to you.

is very rigid and narrow. You can't evaluate or connect dots you refuse to see, and when over a lifetime holding the dream requires ultimately not seeing most of them?

All too often, what we learn as young adults becomes an idée fixe. We tend to cling to such ideas doggedly, often to the point of their becoming obsessions to some degree. Often some ideological principles have a degree of truth embedded in them that is solid enough to color our observations and dim our vision beyond them.

Wonderfully, truth, represented in those "dots," tends to go mainstream. Most people have at least some varying measures of intellectual curiosity and desire to understand and are influenced by truth's validity and their constant need for it.

So there really is such a thing as collective wisdom, and in the long run it is more powerful than the human race's individual and collective idiocies and insanities. We're still here, after all.

Yes, here we still are. Movements come and go. Whether or not they prevail depends on how many people accept them as truth. As we have seen, about 30% of people can accept any damned thing that comes along. Fortunately, there is still 70% to keep those things at bay.

def to be sure.

But you used it in a beautifully written context that utterly expresses how our youthful obsessions cling—true of our obsession with ideas, people, places...

Excellent OP and THIS^

Money doesn't change attitudes, prejudices, and outlooks.

That phenomenon, alone, should be enough to cause us to question the concept.

Thank you for bringing it up.

I'm equally sure he has an answer for them that works for him. I'm less sure that he has the correct answer, though.

....as Sanders - we're 6 years apart and were born about 2 miles apart in Brooklyn.

From what I read of his background, he was much better off than I was at that time.

For comparison, he lived in a 3-1/2 room apartment with his parents and his brother. Contrary to his claim, there was no rent control in Brooklyn until he was about ten years old.

I lived in a 4-1/2 room "railroad flat" with my parents, three brothers, and sister (seven people total). The four boys slept in one room, my sister got her own room although the four of us had to go through her room to get to the main room, which was a combination living room, dining room, and bedroom - my parents slept on a fold out couch in that room.

My father was earning less than $20 a week when I was born in 1948. He had to drop out of high school when he was 15 to go to work to support his family.

My mother did piece-work for a few hours a day to help pay the bills. I wore my older brother's hand-me-downs. My next younger brother wore them after I out grew them (if they weren't tattered by then). He grew faster than I did - by the time I was about 10 that changed - he was bigger than me!

Sanders' brother Larry talks about going out to eat often along King's Highway. We didn't go to restaurants more than about once or twice a year, and that was for special occasions and we were on a strict budget. They lived like royalty compared to us.

I get it, I don't understand why he doesn't. I appreciate everything my parents did for us, and the sacrifices they made for us. When he was in his 30s my father went back to high school at night. He got his high school diploma when he was 38.

None of the six of us grew up unhappy with and resenting everything around us. We were happy, we were close (that happens when you share a bedroom with your three brothers!!), we appreciated life.

Eighteen years after I was born, I was accepted by a small private engineering college with a full academic scholarship. Without that, I would have gone to City College, a free college. We couldn't afford one of the most expensive schools at the time, University of Chicago. I lived at home until after I graduated. Then I went to work soon after graduating, and worked almost steadily (but for a couple of layoffs) for the next 43 years.

Yes, I get it, I don't understand why he doesn't.

I think when I was in high school, he earned $3 per hour. My mom worked part time as a secretary at the school I attended. Between the two of them, we did OK. When I was 16, I worked 3 hours a day, six days a week for $1.25 per hour, almost half time. My job was delivering milk to homes from 5 AM to 8 AM. That freed up the rest of my time for school and other things. My parents made me put 75% of what I earned from that job in a savings account, "for college."

We did OK, though. We wanted for nothing, actually, but didn't have a nice new car, or a big house. Still, I ended up in the college prep track in school, and went off to a state college nearby. Despite our blue-collar income level, that path was available to me. It was not available to many of my friends who were not Caucasian. It was not available to most of the girls I knew, either.

I never thought about any of that until a few years later. I dropped out of college, bummed around the country, and then joined the USAF. After that, I went back to school, with the GI Bill and little else. During my educational hiatus, I found myself immersed in a very different world than the one I knew in my childhood. All of that changed the trajectory of my life.

And in fact refuses to get it.

He has done very well with these old lines.

identity politics. One article referenced spoke of his letter from jail in Birmingham, and in the last paragraph was the sentence (I am paraphrasing) that MLK would view identity politics as the politics of hope. As I understand, BS does not do identity politics, and therein lies the issue. I completely agree Social Justice must come first.

has to do with things beyond our control. We identify as part of various groups, some we are born to and some we voluntarily join. Our identity defines us for ourselves and is how society also defines us. It is who we are. Sometimes, that opens doors, and sometimes it slams those doors in our faces.

Yes, identity politics is a real thing. And yes, social justice is the foundation of any other kind of justice. So I believe, anyhow.

and was poor and Jewish.

I'm pretty sure he's aware of the those that lack privileged!

while missing many of the lessons that might be learned there. Most of my insights from my childhood days came much later, as I considered my childhood from a different perspective. For example, I did not know until a couple of decades after I left my childhood home town that I was in the first class that integrated the "Mexican School" in that town. I had no idea of that. I grew up with more Hispanic friends than Anglo ones. I learn Spanish from those kids and met their families after school.

It was not until years later that I realized the level of prejudice that existed in my home town. Only then could I look at my experiences from a distance and see what my childhood eyes had not noticed.

My family was poor, too, financially, but I didn't really know that, either, until later. Where we grow up isn't necessarily instructive in terms of society. What we learn about our childhood experiences after we are adults is far more important.

I know almost nothing about Bernie Sanders' childhood life experiences or about his reflections on them later, actually.

My city is 110 sq miles. In general my neck of the woods is mostly white. Unless I go downtown or the other side of town I won't see much in the way of minorities during regular outings.

He evangelizes for Socialism. He is passionately doing so relentlessly. If you disagree, and show him why, he just keeps on evangelizing.

I see why Joe pulled ahead. He is more rational and pragmatic. But right now we are on a war footing and in need of a clear path maker. I want Joe to be that because he knows the situation and is trying to sound reasonable in this crisis like none other. His voice is not being heard. The bully pulpit is full on bullshit pulpit.

I fear our bifurcated sources of info may yet destroy us. It could happen overnight.

I miss Warren in the mix.

Yeah, I get it, Bernie bad. Party unity good. Is my original candidate the one on the podium? No. I enjoy Bernie pushing the left to the left after years of being pulled to the right. It's only March, giving him plenty of time to bow out prior to the election.

And frankly, I'm more concerned about civil war than I am about Bernie, but to each his own.

A Trump win in November means that our grand experiment has failed and we will be given a choice: Fight for democracy, its principles and the Constitution or accept the tyranny that will accompany a Drumpf win.

Bernie won't be the cause of a loss; it will be apathy. You increase turnout by 10 percent and the win is in the bag.

Anyway, I've always enjoyed reading MineralMan's posts and that hasn't changed.

Pretending otherwise is a mug's game.




"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

"This pretense of not knowing what any fool knows has come to predominate in our political discourse."

recently when I mentioned poor, African Americans who grow up in poverty with crime and violence in schools have it much more difficult than we middle class, well educated white folks. I was speaking to her from what I see while defending both poor Black men and women in criminal cases who constantly get profiled while driving and even shopping in stores. My sister and her husband, who are Trumpers, were incredulous, like no way, they have the same opportunities as we had to make it in America. The ignorance and arrogance is simply astounding. White privilege is a very definite aspect of our society which most whites people either deny or don’t understand. No All Americans do not have the same opportunities and start at very different places.

At the time I was writing project articles for a home improvement type of publication, and they had asked me to design some lawn furniture for them and provide how-to instructions for readers, based on the popular bent willow style. My editor wanted the pieces to look like those designed by a trendy maker of such furniture, and had paid for permission to more or less copy some of his designs, along with mentioning his name and address in the magazine.

So, I had to visit his workshop and learn more, take some photos, and get some tips on how they were made. Well, the man had his workshop and showroom in Beverly Hills, just off Rodeo Drive. I lived about three hours from there. An appointment was made with the designer, and I drove down to Beverly Hills with my camera equipment and my notebook and sketchbook.

At the time, due to the miserable pay I was getting from that magazine and others, I was driving a 1960 Ford Falcon station wagon. It was painted bright yellow, because I had also recently done an article on how to paint your own car. It was so ugly, that I had named it the Millennium Falcon and had vinyl lettering to that effect on the rear window of the car.

Anyhow, it wasn't the sort of car one normally saw in Beverly Hills. But, I drove the three hours and found a parking spot about three blocks from the designer's showroom. No sooner, though, than I had parked the car, two Beverly Hills police cars pulled up behind the Millennium Falcon, lights flashing. One of the policemen got out of his car and approached my car with his hand on his service pistol.

At the time, I had quite a long full beard and long hair. The cop came up and stood back, out of my view. and demanded my license and registration. I got those things out and turned to hand them to the officer. For the first time, he saw my face. He visibly relaxed and politely asked what I was doing in Beverly Hills.

I explained that I had an appointment to interview the the furniture designer, and take some photos and some notes for a magazine article. "OK," the cop said, and the patrol cars drove off.

Why the change in attitude? The cop saw that I was a white guy. That seemed obvious to me. Since i was a white guy, it was OK that I parked on a street in Beverly Hills. My privilege made it OK to park my decrepit yellow station wagon there.

And there it is.

expecting me to shoplift. Nobody crosses to the opposite side of the street if we're both walking on the sidewalk. Nobody assumes that I am ignorant or stupid, even if I am dressed in shabby clothing. Nobody suspects me of being a burglar if I walk down a street where i don't live. Nobody assumes I am the janitor in some place. If they mistake me for a salesperson, that's a different thing.

I don't notice that those things don't happen, simply because they never happen to me. I think about such situations, because I have heard others talk about that kind of treatment directed at them. I'm only aware of those things because I have heard others' stories. I'm automatically immune from such behavior because I'm a white guy.

Now, I have been ignored when I have entered a store that caters to wealthy people, but that's not the same thing. Not the same thing at all. All I have to do to be accepted there is put on a nice suit and I'm more than welcome and get catered to.

Hope others get it

That is its basis.

by pandering to the wealthy.

It began as that, and remains that to this day.

and from the heart!!

It's DUers like you who keep me writing here.

Thank-you.

Another Bernie Bashing thread! Because that is unifying!

My post is a discussion of political philosophy.

Bashing is something different than what I wrote.

You are mistaken.

Help unify?

Bernie Sanders. Then, when that didn't work, you're asking me why I'm not "unifying."

Here's the thing: There is no requirement that any post be a "unifying" post. My post was informational in nature. It wasn't "bashing."

I will be writing posts about unifying the Democratic Party, just as soon as we have a presumptive nominee without a competing candidate.

You, too, can write unifying posts. I will be happy to read any such posts you have written already. I may have missed them, so you can reply with a link, and I assure you that I will read your post and reply to it.

I am saving the unifying posts for the situation I described above. I assure you that I will write plenty of those.

The goal here is to Defeat Trump. Attacking Senator Sanders and his supporters will not help. That is all i'm trying to say. Either you understand that or you don't. Good luck and stay safe.

And characterizing the OP as "Bernie Bashing" cannot be taken seriously, IMO.

Bernie Sanders and his supporters are for Trump??

You put those words in his/her mouth.

What the poster said was that voters will be either for the Democratic nominee or for Trump. That is an absolutely true statement. So far, Bernie Sanders is still a candidate for the nomination, so posts about him are perfectly fine. Both posts favoring his candidacy or not favoring it are fair game for this forum.

Once there is a nominee or only one candidate left, then the reason for the forum changes into a forum promoting our nominee for elections. At that time, there will be no reason to write about Bernie Sanders, and we'll all be focused on encouraging everyone to vote for Joe Biden.

Until then, posts that offer reasons to vote for or not to vote for one of the candidates are perfectly relevant. Post not encouraging a vote for a candidate are not "bashing." They are simply posts about negative factors about that candidate. Where there is a campaign, people make choices. Once there is only one candidate, we support that candidate here.

No Sanders supporter should have to be "lured" to vote for Biden.

Seriously

a Sanders supporter who needed to be "lured" to vote for Biden. Stay safe!

We were talking about my 22 yr old son finding a job in this mess right now. He said, he won't have a probably. There are always jobs out for young white men. he is saying this to comfort me and assure me that my son would be able to find a job even in this crisis. But what he is saying is what he would argue any time if I brought up discrimination thru racism or sexism.

He knew better. As most privilege knows better, just won't own it.

although he might not realize quite what he said actually means.

He's right, of course. More's the pity, though.

I was talking to my wife the other day about the various jobs we have had during our lives. I thought about it, and realized that I had gotten every job I ever applied for. So, it turned out, had she.

Both of us are well-spoken, smart, and versatile. We're both of average weight and height, and have been reasonably well-groomed and dressed when we have applied. But, the one factor that plays larger than that is that we're both white, We go into job interviews with that advantage, so, if we're qualified for the job, we generally get the job. I've never actually applied for a job I wasn't qualified for, so I've not tested the theory beyond that.

For far too many people, they go into a job interview with the wrong skin color, and the rest gets ignored.

If I did point it out, it would lead to an argument and already with Trump and disgusting behavior of Republicans, I am staying as far away from a fight as I can. I have talked to my family very little the last three years. I am trying to connect without a fight.

I did fail with father when he made mention of Trump doing a good job with the pandemic and then later in the conversation when he pondered this pandemic, the fires in Australia and the Locust situation in Africa. If only we knew what it was saying. At that point I yelled out ... Ya, Democrats have been talking about it for a DECADE!

Things went downhill from there, lol.

Note to self, next conversation, BITE tongue. Lol

It never works out well.

The distinction between economic and social justice? Can't we do both?

"Content of character not color of skin" to that we've added gender, ethnic origin, who you love etc. I'm thinking this is the social part, yes? All good. Government works toward equality of opportunity for all.

The economic part will try to stop the powerful from buying the laws they do, which cause and exacerbate despair and poverty. Food, shelter, and a slice of dignity for all is a good start.
Government should work toward an equality of opportunity for all.

What we do for the least of us ...

I just don't understand? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. How can you split justice or love or the people in two? E Pluribus Unum

The reality out there is that those lofty goals are not actually how things work. Any of those characteristics you listed can block opportunity for anyone who exhibits them in the face of prejudice. Can and does.

While it is possible to legislate equality of pay for work or even to limit the discrepancies of unfair pay differentials between line workers and management, it is impossible to legislate against prejudices effectively.

We do not all start with a common base of opportunity in society. Sometimes that's due to lack of education, but it is more often based on skin color, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or other issues that should be, but are not, irrelevant.

You do not understand, possibly because you have none of those characteristics that hold people back. Perhaps you have unrecognized privilege and do not quite understand how that helps you in many ways. I don't know you, so I cannot say for certain.

I can, however see Bernie Sanders, so i know what his privilege is. I'm not sure he can see it, though.

Government cannot control prejudices. Those are purely social constructs. They are not really subject to legal manipulation.

.

on DU's Home page, I'd like to thank everyone who replied and discussed the topic of the thread.

I've enjoyed reading all of the replies, even those that disagreed with my point. That is why I continue to post on DU.

Or do they just go down with the ship?

Poverty often leads to a loss of privilege, due to an inability to maintain one's sense of well-being and appearance. Consider the homeless white men living in shelters. Even there, you will find a hierarchy of privilege, I'm afraid, despite nobody having any beneficial privilege.

However, a poor white man will often have a better chance of regaining a better position than a poor black man, so that could be considered privilege. I would encourage you to volunteer in a homeless shelter to observe that, as I have, but the current Virus epidemic makes that relatively impossible.

Poverty steals privilege from everyone, but not equally.

Your post is well written, Sir, and I don’t necessarily take issue with your central theme or conclusion.

But you fail to suggest how we achieve this social justice of which you speak. You identify the problem, but don’t suggest how we best address it.

I’m not taking issue with you. I am not implying that economic justice is the magic wand that will create this social justice. But it would help.

Achieving social justice is not going to be easy. It requires changing the mindset of millions of Americans. And therein lies the problem.

In my opinion, there is no single answer to the problem you have identified. Economic justice is definitely one piece of the answer. But at least it’s a piece, and it includes a vital part of the solution — opportunities for a better education for all. There is no magic bullet. But education is of paramount importance. A college (or, better yet, a post-graduate) education is the crucial stepping stone to achieving social justice. I’m not suggesting it’s a panacea. But I do contend that we will never have social justice unless and until opportunities for affordable higher education are afforded to all.

I am not a Sanders supporter. I am a Warren Democrat. I have no doubt that, had Elizabeth Warren been nominated and elected president, significant steps toward achieving both economic reforms and educational opportunities for all would have been accomplished. And those accomplishments would have taken us a significant step in the right direction toward social justice.

P.S. I am also an old white man. I grew up in the projects. And I had few opportunities for advancement despite having graduated from college with honors. My success was achieved as a result of obtaining a J.D. Will acquiring post graduate degrees in and of themselves solidify opportunities for economic and social justice? No. People of color and women, particularly the former, will still face obstacles I didn’t face; will still have to work harder to prove themselves; and will still be discriminated against. It will take generations to nullify racism and misogyny. But, without economic and educational reforms, we will never see such nullification. And we will never see social justice.

That's not the subject of this thread. Education is probably the answer, but prejudices are not easily changed.

Link to tweet

Damn!

Link to tweet

sanders was appealing only to 30% of the party and after South Carolina the rest of the party moved to Joe Biden to stop sanders.

Link to tweet