"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

Compressed to meet character limits on our signature lines. It has been mine for sometime, and since those are stripped from posts here, I have taken to putting it up manually.

I have made one small change, substituting 'people become uneasy' for 'rites and rituals cannot be properly performed'. Since proper performance of same was held to be necessary for public calm and order, and the original would not convey any meaning to most people, I though 'people become uneasy' a reasonable substitute. Mind, I make no claim to have read the original, I cannot make head nor tail of Chinese characters.

The quote is the essential element of 'the rectification of names'. Confucious says were he a ruler, that is the first thing he would set about doing, and his students ask him why. The essential meaning is pretty much that conveyed by 'call a spade a spade' in our country's old vernacular.

Thank you.

I could not recite from memory what surrounds that quote in the Analects, but basically he goes on to say we have some called rulers who are not, some called fathers who are not, some called sons who are not, meaning that they do not act like a ruler or a father or a son should, therefore they should not be called that, for it is not an accurate description. At the time, these things could be taken as references to particular persons, but it has been a while since I read the whole section and its footnotes.

By the way, 'The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress' is one of only two Heinlien works I have ever found worth reading, and i do rather like the Professor's question.

It seems to be popular to pretend that Bernie supporters are disloyal Americans. I'm not having it anymore. Please quit trying to alienate us.

Of course I'll vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is. I love America and therefore I despise Trump.
Though my moral beliefs are on the left, and a centrist is not exactly exciting, I certainly will take that versus the extreme criminal right wing! All DUers who are Bernie supporters would do the same (it's in the TOS).

Are there some people who will only show up if Bernie's on the ballot? Are there some who will only show up if Biden is on the ballot? Probably, and that's tragic - but were they ever Democrats, or did Bernie enlarge the tent to bring them in? Are there some who will show up only if they are given some reason to expect more than centrist status quo? Probably. I may not be able to persuade any of them to show up. But we sure won't help the situation by constantly attacking them.

First, voters on the left are not a bloc that can relied on. The continual threat to withhold votes does not move the Party to the left, but rather inclines movement toward the center, in the hopes the deficit can be made up there. The strategy is self-defeating, it produces the opposite result from what those employing it seek. It would be best to give it up. Unreliable blocs have no influence, reliable blocs do.

In the present election, the Party's chances rest on two things. There are a great many middle of the road types who by now are disgusted with Trump. There is a tremendous energy among dedicated Democrats, who hate Trump like poison. Movement to the left, particularly movement to the left in response to blackmail by Sanders, will repel the former group, and enrage and depress the latter group. The recent Congressional elections made clear where the Party's strength this year will be. It is not towards the left, but towards the center, and in the people 'Bernie' attacks as minions of the 'Democratic Establishment'.

I applaud your sentiments, and have no doubt you will vote for our Party's nominee. I, too, would prefer policies more to left than we could expect from an administration led by Mr. Biden. Faced with the need to evict a criminal and neo-fascist cretin from the White House, and to break McConnell's stranglehold on the Senate, I, like you, will vote for a man of the center, a man in this instance I have had little respect for over the course of his career.

There comes a point however, at which continued campaigning by Sanders, and continued support for him, goes past being just counterproductive to providing aid and comfort to the right. If we are not already past that point, we are certainly near it. Sanders has done this before, he has led followers into a condition of such bitterness and anger many could not bring themselves to do what was best for the people and the country. That bitterness does not come from the acts and words of people defending the Democratic Party and its chosen candidates. It is a sentiment Sanders works to instill in his followers, and some are overcome by it, and in consequence will, with his certain failure come to pass, act in ways that serve Trump and McConnell. By making clear how vast the distaste for Sanders is, people hope at least to convey the message he is far from welcome, and that support for him risks ostracization.





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

It's insulting and alienating.

Bernie does tend to expand the tent left of where the party elites would like it to be. If they find that to be threatening, that's unfortunate. But the reality is, the new voters that Bernie brings in, came from outside the party, mainly from the left, and some from a place of despair and apolitical defeatism.

Those new voters are not Bernie's property to "threaten" anybody with. They are people tenuously willing to give our Party one more chance. Because many of them have pretty much lost all faith in our system (national system, not necessarily just our party), they are not easy to persuade. But we need them. We need every patriotic American to show up and try to save the country. Attacking them will not advance the goal of saving America from Putin-sponsored fascism.

Please remember that Democrats are the moral party. The party of decency. A party I have been proud to support for over 50 years. A party where I have high expectations of its members.

Those expectations have never let me down, except in this particular sub-forum.

It will not make my analysis any less accurate.

If these people do not step up, they forfeit all claim to being patriotic Americans.

It is a blunt, cold fact Sanders is engaged in political blackmail, and anyone who keeps him in countenance through it shares some portion of responsibility for what he does, and for the consequences of it.


"This pretense of not knowing what any fool knows has come to predominate in our political discourse."





From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

No amount of toxic posts in this sad little dark corner of it will persuade me otherwise.

Sorry. Negativity will not succeed. I will vote blue no matter who, no matter how hard anybody here tries to persuade me that liberals are unwelcome in the party or the voting booth. No matter how much prejudice masquerades as facts or deep thought.

And are sick and tired of being called names by people who evidently haven't a clue about human nature and political reality. You preen yourself on the idea you are 'the liberal', and what do you suppose the people you are addressing are? Damned near anyone here addressing you, damned near anyone shocked and dismayed by Sanders' course and demeanor, is a liberal, and worried sick over the harm 'Bernie' is set on wreaking to any chance of liberal and progressive policies being enacted into law. No one is trying to 'drive liberals out of the party'. We are resisting an entry-ist wrecker, who threatens to do to the Democratic Party what 'Militant Tendency' did years ago to England's Labour party, and what over the last few years Jeremy Corbin did to Labour. It is foolish to give yourself such airs of being persecuted, you sound like some evangelical minister claiming his church is persecuted because he saw two men kiss on the teevee, or because public health measures bar large indoor crowds, which means he can't just now fill his pews and gorge on the collection plate. Get over yourself. You will be happier, and so will everyone around you.





From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

I hope you feel better by November.

Our side (and we are still on the same side) will have to work together to rebuild after the Trumpocalypse.

BS lost and he Spent 4x More $$$$ to do it than Joe Biden.

I don't think it means what you think it does.

Any more than the tea partiers did when they bashed Obama as "elite."



Bernie is a Superdelegate, BTW - which is the very definition of "the party elite."

campaign chair.

Biden supporters arent saying people who support Bernie are not loyal to the party, it is his own campaign staff who say they wont vote if Bernie isnt the nominee and they have proven it to be true before.

People can support Bernie of they want, but dont pretend his campaign is interested in helping anyone other than he beat Trump and don't pretend they care if Trump wins against anyone but Bernie.

Truth is with Biden as the nominee, they would rather see Trump win so they can run an 82 year old Bernie again in 2024.

...this year but less voters are voting for Sanders. That's not expanding the tent left of where so-called "party elites" would like it to be, it's contracting it. Less Democratic voters and party members are interested.

And just who are these so-called "party elites" of which you speak? The Democratic Party is a democratic party. I wish people wouldn't attach any ulterior motives to the members of the Democratic Party and the leaders they choose.

The great trend of this election rests on two things. A great many middle of the road are disgusted by Trump, and just about every Democrat hates Trump with a passion. 'Bernie' has nothing to do with this. He is at best a distraction from these energies, and at worst an obstacle to their fullest expression.





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

continual threat to withhold votes does not move the Party to the left, but rather inclines movement toward the center

These were just low information voters manipulated by a few old politicians who turned them against 'Bernie' in order to serve the interests of the --- wait for it --- 'DEMOCRATIC ESTABLISHMENT"....





From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway.

"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

But the women have enough pets here, so you can't follow me home.

A fellow signed up here just to tell me this....

"Crawl back under that fucking rock you slithered out from you fucking reactionary scumbag piece of dogshit."

Hard to resist such a stirring call to unity, eh?

Pretty poorly done, no rhythm, poor sound, it trips up the tongue, when this sort of thing ought to trip off the tongue smoothly and easily. Say it out loud, it's hard not to sputter, and that just ruins a good cussing out.

"Get the fuck back under that rock, you slimy piece of reactionary dogshit!" works much better, I hope you agree. It does not contain every element of the original, but the mark of the artist is knowing what to leave out....



"I'm going home now. Someone get me some frogs and some bourbon."

Your version is so much fucking better!

I do like to think I have a decent command of the language in all its forms....

Then you slam the dreaded "centrists"

Hypocrite much?

You really should peruse this forum though the eyes of somebody coming in for the first time (which is not me - been here since Bush Jr stole his first of two stolen elections). It's really shocking and shameful the amount of rage expressed against Bernie supporters.

Just deal with it and stop trying to pull down the Democratic Party.

"Pull down the Democratic Party?" Did your mother teach you to talk that way?

You need to understand that if you want your guy to be President, he needs votes from the new people that Bernie brings in. I'm an old Dem; I show up every damned time. But there are a lot of people with no firm affiliation whose votes we need every bit as much. Many of them will stay home (and please, knock it off with the "threats" crap) if they don't see some decency in this Party. I sure hope they don't peek in here, looking for it.

of being a rapist (and one Bernie supporter here accused him of being a pedophile), how does that prompt these people on the edge of coming out to vote blue encourage them to "see some decency in this Party"?

I doubt very many of these tentative voters come to DU. They're far more likely to cruise Twitter and other forums, where such accusations by people in Bernie's campaign are being flung wholesale.

Much of the hostility you see to Bernie here is prompted by his surrogates propagating such slanders. A few weeks ago it was "Biden is weak and senile." Last week it was "Biden has disappeared." This week it's "Biden is a rapist."

Bernie supporters like yourself keep urging the rest of us to embrace (and not criticize) Bernie and his supporters, all the while the Sanders campaign engages in these sorts of smears.

Just so you know, I supported Bernie in the 2016 primaries. Since then I've been hugely disappointed in both his actions and his surrogates. And the longer Sanders stays in the campaign, the more slurs and untruths are spread by him and his surrogates, the more my disappointment is turning into something akin to disgust.

Bernie is not doing anyone any good by these actions, that is anyone other than Trump. If he's truly interested in rescuing this nation from the worst administration in its history, he would drop out ASAP and endorse Biden, so that we can get on with it.

Just my opinion.

Not all Biden supporters express that kind of hatred, and I will try my best to mend the divide between the two groups. These primaries can tend to sometimes hide a lot of our basic decency, but in the end we need to realize we are on the same team fighting the same fight!

Talk about alienating people...

It's very destructive.

I do..

Link to tweet

that's just a meme propagated by some.

Check out his Platform.

on his "alienating" the Dem Party.

Link to tweet

is not valid criticism. It is deeply divisive and destructive hatred. Something Putin would be gleeful over.

The OP's humorous criticism is far from baseless. Indeed, it's spot-on satire, and I detect no hatred in it.

The charge of hatred is an intellectual cop-out. I hereby accuse you of "hating" me, which automatically invalidates all arguments you put forth from this point on.

Are you beginning to see how the hate card works?

Now, if we're done playing that stupid hate card, we can have a rational discussion of our different interpretations of the OP.

It's clear to me that you believe that the OP is meant to imply that Sanders is somehow akin to a sexual predator, in which case your umbrage would certainly be justified.

However, I and most on the thread simply see the point of the OP as being that Sanders' insistence on being accepted by a party whether it wants him or not is becoming embarrassingly unreasonable. To which I can only say once again, "spot-on".

Last edited Fri Mar 27, 2020, 05:14 PM - Edit history (1)

It appears you are looking for any reason to refuse to support the Democratic candidate for POTUS, applying standards not applied to the behavior of many Sanders supporters.

when Sanders is the subject of it.

That attitude is what is deeply destructive and sad, and something that Putin would be gleeful over.

And of course I will vote for the Democratic nominee; have I mentioned that I am an American?

It's absolutely shameful and un-American to imply that everybody must vote the same way you do.

It's equally shameful and dishonest to imply that a different choice in the primary means I would fail to show up and support the Democratic nominee, whoever it is.

This attempt to split the Party up is extremely destructive and amoral. Frankly I wonder how much of it is coming from outside the USA.

to our nominee?

Vote blue no matter who.

for example, when I said
"Those new voters are not Bernie's property to "threaten" anybody with. They are people tenuously willing to give our Party one more chance."

They're not voting apparently.

Innumeracy is a big problem in this country.

Do you want all of those voters, or only the ones who will vote blue no matter how hostile Biden's supporters are?

Many primaries are open. That means that many of those 30% (and before you jump there, no, not me) only consider themselves "sorta" Democrats. Scorn those "sorta" Democrats at the peril of this nation's survival.

Who are the "sortas?" There's no middle anymore. The "sortas" are to your left. If you want to win, you have to show them a reason to believe that something will be better for them. You will not get them to the polls by insulting them, such as by implying they are all misogynistic jerks. Guess what? Many of them (who I personally know) are women, despite the false memes spread around this joint.

"Be nice to us, or you will alienate us." works both ways. We're not accusing Bernie of rape and totting out a Putin sympathizer as evidence.

I won't hold my breath.

I think it's wishful thinking.

I really hope you will be putting every bit as much effort into supporting the Democratic nominee (heaven knows we will need every bit of help we can get to defeat the Trumpskulls!) as you are in continuing a semantic argument that only draws out resentment from other members of this "large tent" Democratic party.
I'm not trying to "win" an argument - I'm trying to defeat IQ45!

I'm just really getting infuriated with the constant false meme that Democrats who support Bernie are disloyal.

Semantic argument? Seriously? I've avoided this forum because every post I see pop up on the home page has been more and more obnoxious. But at some point, I had to speak up.

I will resist the effort to push people like me (liberals) out of the party. But I do want those who are trying to push me out to know that I see it for what it clearly is.

That you think there is a concerted effort to “drive you out”. Geez. You should be trying to join us instead of insulting us. I’m not going to beg for your vote. America is free.
Voting is actually secret anyway.

Joe is going to beat trump. Whether your steadfast 30% does the right thing or not.
Vote on Joe beating trump because that is in your best interest. Hurt feelings really don’t count for shit anymore.

I have begged for many votes and I do not regret it at all

I wonder how you are so sure about the outcome this time when we were all so wrong about last times outcome?

I read this forum for years before I ever posted, you can't drive me off but I worry about those that are young, just deciding that read posts that don't really want them to join us anyways

I’m sure as I’ve ever been on Joe Biden.

I don't get any undecided at this point. Bernie isn’t going to win the nomination.
So what.. Joe or Trump?

So if you or youth or old people don’t vote blue, that’s how we lose. So yeah, get behind Joe because it’s the right and only thing. If we do lose it will be those undecided because I know 51% of he rest of us will.

You keep saying you read posts here saying we don’t want such and such votes. No one has said that. We say vote blue. If anyone has to question it then it’s just dumb and the way we do lose.

you said,

. You supporters have such egos....

That you think there is a concerted effort to “drive you out”. Geez. You should be trying to join us instead of insulting us. I’m not going to beg for your vote. America is free.
Voting is actually secret anyway.

Joe is going to beat trump. Whether your steadfast 30% does the right thing or not.
Vote on Joe beating trump because that is in your best interest. Hurt feelings really don’t count for shit anymore.

/////////////////////

insulting strangers is one way of saying"we don't want your votes"

I will take my ego and don't count for shit feelings and leave this convo

Nearly half of Sanders supporters indicated last month that they either would not vote for the Democratic nominee were it not Sanders or their decision would depend on the nominee. Based on all of the false narratives coming out of the Sanders camp, like the "dementia" garbage pushed by the Trump team, the concerns that his supporters won't show up are clearly not unfounded.

https://www.newsweek.com/andrew-yang-bernie-sanders-supporters-wont-support-another-nominee-democratic-unity-msnbc-poll-1485241

From what I see, you're the one tossing around personal attacks and threats. Your assertions accusing others of "hateful" behavior are simply projection.

I posted the same thing, and edited once I noticed your response.

should not inform your voting habits.

Why would you do that?

even though it seems to be very popular here on DU.

Remember Sanders' popularity among young voters.

a dictatorial edict from der fuhrer

Bringing it all back home!

while Biden stays out of sight.

Two points:

I've lived in two cities in which there was a local Democratic machine that ran the city. Look too closely into Detroit and Philadelphia politics, and it is hard to argue that the Democratic Establishment is pure and uncorrupted, and criticism of it should be off-limits.

DU should turn its back on this vicious hostility to supporters of Bernie. The enemy is Trump and his mindset and the economic practices he represents.

However, I'm tired of attempting to discuss things here.

...to be on CNN for an hour tonight (I think at 8PM with Anderson Cooper)

So far they've been great, addressing the issues with experts. He hasn't had any musical guests at any of them, though.

Link to tweet

Perfectly understandable, but hardly an impressive complaint. Roughly three times as many members are willing to openly state support for Mr. Biden than for Sanders. You must expect that to be reflected in the proportion of posts in support of these two men. You may be sure when Sanders concedes his defeat, and his campaign staff and supporters cease attacks against the 'Democratic Establishment' and the Party's candidate for President, Mr. Biden, and other Democratic candidates for high office, and instead turn their fire exclusively against Trump and McConnell and the Republicans, the things you complain of will disappear. Otherwise they will go on, and complaint of this is foolish and futile. Complain to the wreckers and splinterists, not the people defending against their destructive efforts.





From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

there's no mathematical way BS can catch up to him.

And, on DU.. Biden is at "37%" and BS is at 14%.. so do the math.. there are More Biden Supporters than BS supporters.

If anyone sees a lot of Biden Support here they should really understand WHY!

Mo' Joementum.

sanders was appealing only to 30% of the party and after South Carolina the rest of the party moved to Joe Biden to stop sanders.

Link to tweet

Or were you referring to other young voters?

THe ones most easily swayed by rhetoric and personality cults

Give it some real effort. You must have it in you.

And note that, though it is being treated lightly, the line you are suggesting is at bottom rank blackmail, an extortionate threat. A dicey business, many people do not respond with docility.





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

Last edited Fri Mar 27, 2020, 04:36 PM - Edit history (1)

The great majority, even preponderance, of Sanders voters, you yourself insist, will vote for Mr. Biden, the Party's nominee for President, come November. What can be called Sanders' base is only that small portion of those who voted for him who share his goal of destroying the 'Democratic Establishment', so the wreckage of the Party can be taken over by Sanders and his coterie. These are the people who engage in smears and slanders of any Democrat not loyal above all else to Sanders, and do in fact loudly insist they will vote for no Democrat if 'Bernie' is not nominated, and might even vote for Trump if Mr. Biden is the candidate.





From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."