Maybe this virus will change the next 50 state primaries.

Unfortunately, they are not single-issue voters, and they believe Biden is the better candidate to take on trump.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if we could start them over. Lol.

...not specifically "medicare for all".

Care to show just ONE poll that said that?

And those are EXIT polls, not "polls".

A couple of examples:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/live-blog/march-10-primaries-live-updates-democratic-presidential-candidates-face-6-n1153296/ncrd1154931#liveBlogHeader

Let me play along: what is the difference between "government plan for all" versus "Medicare for All"?

There has been legislation in the past that proposed individual states delivering the health care rather than a federally run system.

You have to be purposely oblivious to miss that.

why can't you see the deeper meaning?

At least none of the exit polls I saw said that.

The ACA provides $0/mo. options. These plans have high co-pays and high deductibles but are overall better than not having insurance and one is insured so being denied service because of lack of insurance would no longer be an issue.

and I hear lots of friends talk about having to pay the co pay at time of service

healthcare should be a right and not so complicated

I think you raise a good point about people dying because of COVID-19 and Trump's incompetence and responding. Bernie is continuing to try to help Trump win.

Italy has single payer, yet thousands of people are dying.

They eat a lot of pasta.

I know some Bernie supporters are trying to spin single payer as the reason why COVID-19 has spread so fast in the U.S. unlike South Korea, but that does not explain Europe. Also, a lot of the reason why we are behind is due to Trump. Thus, to the extent anyone is trying to undermine Democratic efforts to beat Trump, then they are culpable for the deaths caused by his mismanagement, particularly since we now can see Trump's record.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/07/trump-coronavirus-management-style-123465

According to this ranking.

https://www.treecycle.eu/en/2020/03/12/italy-is-the-4th-country-in-the-world-for-healthcare/

But the virality of the disease overwhelmed their resources. In fact, the long life expectancy in Italy probably contributed to the large number of critical cases.

The fact that people are being turned away HERE because they lack health insurance just makes the situation worse. What part of that don't you get?

...so lets have single payer like Italy?

You are right. I don't get your logic.

Conversely, I think you would agree that Trump's incompetence and lies have significantly worsened the U.S. ability to respond to COVID-19. Therefore, efforts to undercut the Democratic nominee's efforts to replace Trump with someone competent will result in the deaths of folks like the teen you mention who not even got sick but for Trump being President.

The question is whether we will repeat that mistake?

But lousy preparedness.

South Korea has both an excellent healthcare system and good preparedness.

The U.S. both a lousy healthcare system and lousy preparedness.

You do the math.

25 would be covered. There are different means by which young adults could be covered in current
and future systems without M4All and no guarantee M4All will not have personnel shortages, result in rural hospital closures, or not suffer cutbacks and glitches that could result in needless deaths.

if your parents are uninsured or not in the picture that doesn't help

Put everyone on the higher tier plan. Low cost public option. Hospitals with sliding cost clinics. Expand Medicaid. That’s until we have universal.

the most cost effective way to cover everyone is single payer

according to what I've read. I'm sure there will be a lot of studying about this when this crisis is over.

People are dying in countries all over the world that have some version of M4A.

I changed my text to add some hope.

That's where the main difference lies. The UK has universal health care but they also have a PM who sucks and their numbers are currently 11 deaths per million population. Norway and Germany also have universal health care but they have governments that have taken action to try to control the outbreak by closing the borders and enforcing quarantines with stiff fines, and they have had only 4 deaths per million population.

...your article doesn't even mention Medicare at all.

Because Medicare didn't prevent deaths, we shouldn't have Medicare.

The poster was responding to the central claim made that MFA would have prevented the death. People with Medicare and good insurance are dying. Also, the kid went into cardiac arrest on the way to the hospital, there is no certainty that the same would not have happened at the critical care facility, most of which have pretty skeletor staffs.

Expanded Medicaid also would have covered him if he lived in my state. I am unfamiliar with California's Medicaid system and eligibility requirements, but in my state we have gotten the uninsured rate down to 5% and hospital social workers are very well trained in Washington State in signing people up for Medicaid. Medicaid in Washington State will also pay old medical bills when you become eligible.

Policy issues aside, this is a heartbreaking tragedy.

Think. He was finally taken to the emergency room when it was too late.

with inability to pay or where insurance is not present.

I am thinking about this. The end of the mandate meant that many people declined to get coverage, and without the individual mandate, there are going to be many individuals who present at for-profit urgent cares without insurance and get turned away.

This is a terrible tragedy, and the watering down of the ACA over the past few years has had horrific results.

...and medical facilities all over the country and NONE of them have "medicare for all". So the premise of your OP is incorrect.

Jesus, this is such a bad-faith debate.

There was no option to will universal coverage into existence.

Going to an urgent care that required insurance and being turned away resulted in a delay that cost this young man his life.

My point is that in our current system, emergency rooms do not turn people away for lack of insurance.

healthcare shouldn't be so complicated

very rapidly from what looks like a bronchitis on xray to what looks like the lung is full of fluid (which in fact it is) I saw a clip of xrays taken over a 3 day period in China and the first one showed plenty of gray around the white areas, the 2nd day the white had increased and the third day both lungs were completely white.

If you can get there, it is always better to go to a hospital ER because they won't make you pay up front if you are uninsured like walk in offices will.

Where were his parents? Usually, as far as I know a 17 year old is under a parent's ins. If they have insurance. I wouldn't let anyone of my kids go to a hospital alone when they were 17.

It's the law. You didn't know that?

"Would an emergency room take him in if he was coughing?" Yet, the point you seemed to have made in the OP was the critical care facility turned him away knowing that he was sick, but if he had insurance, they would have treated him.

You appear to be pushing an agenda and don't care about how inconsistent some of your posts are.

But then again that's all the other side has.

I really don't care who flames me for what I just said. The truth hurts, deal with it.

A side note I was not going to be on DU today to take a break. I walk into this shit. This is a primary forum don't try to make anything but what it is.

I don't admire their arguments. I don't believe that putting everyone on Medicare would be a good idea. I believe that Medicaid is a much more supple and already existing program, and I believe that expanded Medicaid will hit the target of insuring poor and working class families.

The problem with the ACA is that it throws an unfair burden upon middle class Americans, and this has to be addressed as soon as we can. But I don't believe in throwing away the ACA.

would be much better than Medicare for All. I’m on Medicaid and love it.

in Illinois Medicaid has all kinds of co pays for specialists and meds that are not covered

and you literally cant have any property, not even a car worth more than 2 grand

I should clarify. I’m on SSDI with Medicare for a primary coverage and Medicaid as secondary. I pay nothing for anything. I’m very lucky.

maybe some day the rest of us can get that kind of care

in Illinois Medicaid comes far from covering everything but of course it is better than nothing

Or failure to go to a hospital sooner and not a private owned urgent care.

Do you not understand?

You don’t go to an urgent care when you’re at death’s door

No one ever gets medically evaluated to find out, with a modicum of professional experience.

He must have been pretty damn sick.

I’ll grant you he probably didn’t know he was about to die.

But if they suspected he had Covid they would have sent him to the hospital anyway.

My local urgent care has a sign on the door not to even come in if the person suspects they have Covid.

There is literally very little an urgent care can do for someone that sick.

Really just disputing that he died for lack of insurance. Or even because urgent care didn’t evaluate him.

We can't test it, and we can't restore from backup and try it again.
I do think we can do better though, and M4A is certainly one way to accomplish it.

Agreed

You didn't say that, as you well know.

The story does not back up the claim.

He presented at a facility that can’t handle what he suffered from... so he would be sent to the ER even with a universal coverage system.

And a 17 year old dying of a heart attack doesn’t fit a “died of Covid” assumption. He may have tested positive, but he almost certainly died of something else.

under Biden's plan.

parents who weren't covered otherwise.

handle respiratory distress, heart attacks, stroke, unconsciousness, etc.

That's my guess. The other guess is that the parents didn't have him covered for some reason, which would be a mistake.

California covers kids. I'm not really arguing against MFA, just saying something is wrong here.

I like MFA if an electable candidate is pushing it in a political environment where it has a chance of enactment. That is not the case here. Biden's plan of a Public Option -- with enhanced subsidies -- will get us to MFA much faster than the candidate I am assuming you support.

kid close to cardiac arrest.

Call up an Urgent Care Center near you and say I have insurance and am having pain like a heart attack, and see what they say.

They mostly handle colds, flu, UTIs, small wounds, bug bites, etc. Someone that sick is going to be directed to an ER immediately.

They're not there for anything major at all. Basically, they're just a place to go for an ear infection and the like...

what you pointed out.

....but that's what you're claiming in your subject line.

Which would not be an issue if we had medicare for all.

Why must you engage in this patently bad faith exchange?

My part of the exchange isn't bad faith. I'm not claiming that something that doesn't exist and won't for years, if ever, is the reason this young man passed away.

Bernie's plan will never come to fruition so Biden's plan helps a lot of people and Bernie's helps ZERO.

It would never come to fruition even if he did win the primary. He is not capable of forming the coalition needed to pass anything.

pool of people that could form said coalition?

Bernie doesn't like to call people to ask them to get on board with his legislation.. Calling, asking for input or ideas, creating something a broad group of legislators will be happy to vote for... These are basic things needed to get things passed. He doesn't have the skills to do that. I don't think he even likes to give people credit for their own ideas. Bernie's med4all has ZERO chance of passing. Biden's plan therefore helps more people.

Last edited Fri Mar 27, 2020, 06:40 PM - Edit history (1)

So really, why bother?

Stop with this incendiary shit. But we have to start somewhere. BS can promise and claim whatever he wants, it won't matter when there is no chance to get it through Congress. How hard is that to understand? A plan that might not be perfect but helps millions more in comparison to the current state, is still immense progress. And it doesn't have to be the end.
BS likes to (falsely) compare his ideas with other countries.I suggest his supporters do that as well in more detail instead of just believing whatever he's saying. In any system, for any social program, there will always be some who fall through the cracks. You have to work on that in increments.

...misrepresenting what went on here and attribute it to something that isn't true.

We've been through this movie before. Some people sign up for ACA, others fail to sign up for some reason or another (for example, because they're undocumented immigrants).

In any case, this kid, through no fault of his own, died because he lacked insurance. And this was under Obamacare.

Biden's plan expands the income cap. So if the kid's family made too much money for a subsidy, Biden's plan would include them. If the kid's family was poor and citizens, they could either get ACA subsidies or Medicaid.

You are hopelessly pushing an agenda and ignoring people that are pointing out the fallacies in your arguments.

I don't click on just any link.

says it will deny insurance to up to 10 million people?

And what he said about Italy in the debate was perfectly true. They do have an excellent nationalized system, but that wasn't a solution to the huge surge in illness caused by coronavirus, as Bernie implied Medicare for all would be. No system could easily withstand a surge like we are undergoing.

aren't even accepting suspected COVID people. That’s not what an urgent care facility is for. They’re not equipped. They’ll tell you where to go. Give you a phone number. In some cases I’ve seen them xall an ambulance

They would send the person to a hospital.

If he was that close to death I’m not sure what they could have done for him there. They wouldn’t have had a ventilator.

So I think it’s stretching the facts to say that he died because they wouldn’t help him.

You’re misunderstanding

You go to an emergency room, not urgent care. Urgent care isn’t equipped.

All medical centers are not the same. You’re not going to your family doctor if you’re that sick for instance

got check out at urgent care. So once again, this claim is fatuous.

I know what my local urgent care is doing. They don’t even want you to come in.

The only way it would work the way you say is if the person walked in not knowing they’re sick with Covid. Then they’d be evaluated and then sent to the emergency room, not treated

So even if you get in, if you’re that sick they can’t help you.

Urgent care is for much more minor conditions and unlike EMS do not stabilize in the field. They do not usually even keep bp meds on hand. They do not do a full work up. They do distinguish between emergency and non-emergencies. Much of the time their instruction is either go to the ER or see your PCP.