we haven't had all that many posts from them today.

Why shouldn't they be here?

don't actually want us around. They don't want to hear from us. They're not interested in our opinions. They just want to be able to take our vote for granted. That attitude got old a long time ago.

to beat the evil repugs. You know, majority rules and all. I know it's quaint and so pre-2016, but that's how it used to be before a certain senator from a small state came on the scene.

So why is it different now? Remind us.

Why are you so eager to prevent them? I know it's quaint, but the primaries aren't finished.

trump. Now it you were advocating voting by mail I can see that, but endangering people by having them go to the polls is just silly, especially when we know that Sanders has no chance of winning.

We've seen this movie before.

I've been voting by mail long enough to take it for granted. But yes, I think we will all be voting by mail in November and will need to get the systems set up and ironed out quickly. We might as well start with the remaining primaries.

Go ahead and get into general election mode. I wish Joe and Bernie would, too. It's a good time to turn up the heat on the ginger pig, and I want to see them get on with it.

that "narrow path" to victory charade?

Fact less baseless claims

Can you really say you don’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want this to stop...really?

Should I start hunting around for them?

Link to tweet

I do know that those who shout the loudest, make not most fuss are just trying to convince themselves that they are right, self doubt. Maybe we are witnessing a Biden bro's movement but maybe not

Nobody’s taking your vote for granted. It’s up to you to do the right thing for the country.

Last edited Wed Apr 1, 2020, 07:17 AM - Edit history (1)

our opinions". Where do you get this absolutist nonsense?

I want 95% of all that Bernie has in his wish list and I would be ecstatic to hear of genuine realistic plans to achieve those goals. But, "Join the revolution and we'll just do it!" is not a plan. Your "opinions" seem limited to "Bernie should be the nominee". We know WHAT you want because we mostly want the same things. But, we haven't heard HOW you and Bernie plan to achieve everything WE want.

We'd rather elect someone who not only wants what we want but also is likely to achieve SOME of the objectives on our list.

So, don't keep dropping this Rodney Dangerfield "we don't get no respect" crap, cause that's all it is: crap.

... is that people whose candidate-of-choice didn't wind up with the nomination would support the chosen nominee - just as Warren, Harris, Buttigieg, et al supporters have done.

What we also took for granted is that every Democrat would see Trump being defeated as the ultimate goal, regardless of which of our candidates would be chosen to lead that effort.

What's getting REALLY old is the insufferable whinging from BSers about how THEY somehow deserve special treatment because their candidate lost, when no other supporters of the other candidates who have lost are insisting that they have to be coddled and cajoled into doing the right thing.

As for the BSers who are claiming they will vote for Trump instead of Biden, how do you even deal with people who are saying, "Because my candidate didn't win, I'm going to vote for the idiot who represents the exact opposite of everything Bernie stands for"?

If you 'opinion' is that you are entitled to special attention because Democrats have rejected Bernie, then you're right - no one is interested in that 'opinion'.

The 'further left' traditionally take as their chief immediate enemy parties and political figures of the center left, rather than parties and figures of the right. This is because a strong center-left party balks any possibility of revolution. It will have the allegiance of most working people, because it will bring them real benefits in their lives, and by doing so, will shut off influence of the 'further left' by making it clear measures well short of the desperate expedients the 'further left' prescribes for improving the lot of working people are not necessary.

Because center-left parties do uphold the present order of society, the 'further left' sees them as obstacles to its desires quite as much as any reactionary party on the right. Thus you have the 'not a dime's worth of difference' line that views our two major parties as interchangeable. Since the 'further left' cannot comprehend how working people could possibly form an honest attachment to rightist parties, their view comes to be that center-left parties are their chief obstacle to mass support from working people, and they imagine that if center-left parties are broken, they will inherit the mass support of working people, and thus become predominant. Then it will be the time to deal with the reactionary right, but until it is the 'further left' which has undisputed leadership of working people, the reactionary right cannot be dealt with properly.

Properly, here, indicating a policy guided by the slogan quite popular in the radical salad days of the seventies: 'What's the solution? Revolution!' Few nowadays on the 'further left' dream of an actual, barricades and snipers and car-bombs sort of armed revolution, but they do envision a complete overthrow of existing economic and social arrangements. One of the things they fail to understand about working people, and people on the lower rungs of the economic scale generally, is that people who have not much but do have a little are extremely reluctant to put the little they have at risk, and they know that in turmoil and tumult that little will be at risk. There are strains of the 'further left' which do have some understanding of this, and their view is that working people must be made to lose that little they have now, and lose it to the unmitigated predation of the reactionary right. Only then, when they have nothing to lose, will working people be ready for revolution under the banner of the 'further left'. This provides such people still another reason to oppose and demolish center left parties, as these do mitigate the suffering the right would impose on working people, and so are the chief force in balking revolution. These elements view an initial triumph of the reactionary right as an essential step in their own program to achieve revolution, and so are actually quite pleased by the reactionary right achieving political success at the expense of center-left parties.





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

As for your vote, rest assured I haven't taken it for granted for over 40 years. I know you will vote your personality.

Since I've had to live in a democracy, I'm fortunate that it's as close to a sacred belief as I can get.
I value the will of the people very highly, am suited to compromise and cooperation, and don't regard ideological minorities (I'm always one, you know) not being able to impose our beliefs on everyone as "failure of the system." Quite the contrary.

Frankly, being unable to accept the realities of democracy and doomed to anger and despair every election sounds like some secular this-life hell. For mental health if nothing else, I'd recommend trading in political forums for gardening and every 2 years or so spending a few minutes supporting the will of the liberal progressive Democratic majority -- because that means the democracy that creates a stable, free structure to live our lives in is still functioning, on the left at least.

But you'll live your life as you must, that seems clear, and I mine.

1423 people died today.

More will die tomorrow and the next and the next and the next. Frankly I don't give a damn about hurt feelings.

It is not about you or me, it is about us.

about Biden crap. We have one job. Make Trump quit killing us. They are weakening their own argument. We have to have one united message.

I would want the policies Sanders (and Warren) have been promoting all along to become reality. However, if the Democratic nominee and platform are again going to be "moderate", "centrist", "corporate-friendly" or worst of all "bi-partisan", then there's not much hope for that, is there.

Which is a loss for us all, because when people are asked about those individual policies without being told they are "socialist" or "leftist", the majority of the country wants them. Often, that includes republican voters.

Are his own since the 90’s. Tell me again why you think they are his alone or that issues for the working class will not be touted in a real democratic platform?

It was of course shot down by conservatives, but he tried.

Every year since then he re-introduced it, then his son Jr followed up for years, and when he retired Jr.'s wife Debbie has been carrying the torch for universal healthcare.

Others, most notably John Conyers, have done so for years, too.

So, it's a 77-year old priority of the Democratic Party.

as it was written in 2016.

What parts of the platform do you see as "corporate friendly" and "bipartisan" and "centrist"?

All of the things Bernie wants--universal health coverage, protecting Social Security specifically and the social safety net in general, voters rights, a livable minimum wage, protections for labor, addressing climate change, opportunities and a level playing field for people of color, women, and people with disabilities, a sane and humane immigration policy, a woman's right to choose, LGBTQ rights--they're all in there, last I checked. All together the Democratic platform is centuries more progressive than anything you'll see in the GOP platform.

Seriously, which specific planks do you want to see changed?

Warren, my Senator, is doing just that from her Senate seat and as always, doing it very well. She returned immediately after she saw she did not have the math to win. She has not been in the Senate all that long, yet has done more than Sanders in his 30 years. See CFPB, she built it long before she won her seat.

She has also been working night and day, with her fellow Democrats, helping write a recovery bill. A bill that will help the poor and now unemployed middle class...two groups that Bernie says he cares about. He never bothered to show up in his seat.

But, hey, keep on about how centrist and bi-partisan it is. That never fails to amuse.

See how feasible the candidate is at winning and support them ...because that is not the reality this moment in politics.
Let's see how fluid you can be in future politics because it might open up to another person next cycle. Bernie doesn't have a path this cycle for president

you find so objectionable.

Please point out for me the parts you find "corporate friendly," just for starters.

Surely you must have particular planks of the platform in mind, given how strongly you seem to feel about its shortcomings.

Follow AOC's lead. She's the future of the movement. Bernie's days are actually over, he just doesn't want them to be

She essentially bailed on Sanders after the Rogan "endorsement", which was smart of her and quite politically astute.

I've often said that the progressive movement needs to decentralize if it actually wants to accomplish something and AOC seems to understand that it's about more than just Bernie.

She does things that annoys me on occasion, but that's true of every politician ever. Overall, she has a great future

I cannot believe in light of this crisis and the obvious issue of millions of people that will be unemployed that it's even a question.
Premiums projected to increase 40% next year, etc ,etc. 68000 still die every year w/lack of access, etc
More pandemics, downturn in economy, etc.

Have always pushed for?

These are not new ideas bernie made up, they’ve been around since the 70s

He neither originated the policies he promotes, nor is he the only person who promotes such policies. He certainly has not accomplished anything towards their enactment into law.

His excuse for this is claiming the 'Democratic Establishment' thwarts his efforts, and does so because it is the chief opponent of left, liberal, and progressive policies in our nations political life. Seldom is a word said against the christo-fascist reactionary right, which is doing everything in its power to roll back even the programs of Mr. Roosevelt's New Deal, and may well succeed in that effort if they are given another four years of the Executive and Senate. People have little idea just how much depends on a very few court decisions from the thirties, which 'conservatives' have had in their sights for many decades. Decisions regarding the Commerce clause which extended the Federal governments ability to regulate nationally. Prior courts had ruled unconstitutional everything from Federal child labor laws to mine safety regulations.

The fact is Sanders campaigns not to gain the Democratic Party's nomination for President, but to weaken if not wreck the 'Democratic Establishment'. For 'Bernie', ousting Trump and ending the Republican majority in the Senate is barely an afterthought to this long-standing purpose. But this jihad against the "Democratic Establishment' plays out, pressed on present lines, tp material assistance for the christo-fascist reactionary right. Once Sanders' supporters face this fact squarely, they may be able to decide honestly what their best course in this election is: voting against 'Bernie' in any future primary, and for Mr. Biden and Democrats all down the ticket to the lowest office on the ballot come November.






"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

Sanders ideas aren't new, just his followers

It is that simple.

That has much more support and is significantly more likely to be able to make it through Congress, assuming we can keep the House and pick up a majority in the Senate.

get nothing...

but most people, certainly not most voting Democrats, do not support Bernie.

So, even coupling a winning policy with a losing candidate also gets you nothing.

This next election is about more than "Medicare for All." It's about saving the republic. It's about not further stacking the courts with right wing judges (who will never support single payer). It's about taking control of our federal government away from a malignant scam artist under the sway of a foreign dictator. It's about saving what's left of the EPA, the CDC, the Justice Dept. and so much more.

Bernie staying in the race jeopardizes everything. That he and his supporters can't see the forest for the trees is yet another danger we now face.

The argument 'Bernie' supporters press boils down to stating no bread is better than half a loaf.





"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

Why does he not do this?

of picking their own health insurance policy.

Biden does have a plan to get us to universal coverage. You can go to his website and check it out for yourself.

I rather like the system that Germany has, which is a mandate for health insurance (which was part of Obamacare before the Supreme Court axed it--yet another reason why the next election is so important) and a public option for those who want it.

That would be the next logical step in building on Obamacare, that and lowering the eligibility age for Medicare so more people can sign into it if they want.

Not that I can speak for Vice President Biden.

And what follows is more cynicism and disappointment. Which I would posit as a feature, not a bug in spreading mistrust of everything. It's the 'Burn the House Down' theory for getting what you really want--destroy and then rebuild in your own image.

Steve Bannon on the right, Bernie Sanders on the left. Kissing cousins.

Still I haven’t seen Sanders or any of his followers defending Biden agains these lies.

If BS cares about expanding healthcare coverage, he'll work together with Biden on a plan that is feasible and that helps as many as possible.
But for the sake of the country, don't get stuck on a buzzword or a plan that BS himself has no clue about when it comes to the details, costs or how to get it through Congress.

Nothing in it even implies anything is to be opposed merely because 'Bernie' is for it.

The facts that 'Bernie' is quite shaky on the particulars which must undergird sweeping proposals for reform, and that 'Bernie' clearly lacks the legislative acumen to get the measures he proposes passed by Congress, are presented. It is noted that 'Medicare for All' is a mere marketing slogan, and one that has succeeded no better than 'New Coke' managed to do.

Further, 'Bernie' is urged to get behind the Party and help with the heavy lifting of actually getting some reforms into law, whether they are exactly what he envisions or not.

Disputing these points may be possible, but the sort of blanket and distorted dismissal you have proffered will not do at all....






"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

That is a rather telling conclusion from your side and it's wrong as I have given several points for why I think it's just not realistic. It's not so much about being against the policy idea, it's that it would be almost impossible to get it through Congress. BS might choose to promise something that is just not realistic but the Dems shouldn't lie about it and make it a part of the platform when they see no way of implementing it.

That is only one part. The other red flag is now evasive BS has been throughout the campaign whenever it was about providing details for his plan. Repeating a slogan is easy but where are the concrete, fact-based numbers and how he'll pay for it? Why can't he be honest and open about it? I don't even think he himself believes in what he's selling.

And Democrats were supporting universal health care since before he was in Congress.

It is the only thing he can do at this point that will not tend to assist that cheap thug Trump.

Stand down, with no demands, expecting no concessions, roll over with his belly in the air and await the decision of Mr. Biden and our Party. Nothing shorter will serve the need of our people and our country.






"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

It is not over yet. Part of what I believe in can still be accomplished.

Your insistence they matter above all else suggests a mixture of arrogance, self-importance, and foolishness, of a positively breathtaking dimension.

"An idealist is one who, on noting a rose smells better than a cabbage, insists it will make a better soup."







"From Bernie’s perspective, dropping out of a race once you have no chance of winning is peculiar behavior that can only be explained by the work of a hidden hand. For most politicians, though, it is actually standard operating procedure. Only Sanders seems to think the normal thing to do once voters have made clear they don’t want to nominate you is to continue campaigning anyway."





"When things are not called by their right names, what is said cannot make sense. When what is said does not make sense, what is planned cannot succeed. When plans do not succeed, people become uneasy. When people are uneasy, punishments do not fit crimes. When punishments do not fit crimes, people cannot know where to put hand or foot."

John Conyers submitted a Medicare for All bill in 2003 and universal health care was added to the platform for the 2006 midterms.

Sanders's 2017 bill was a parallel bill to Conyers's, 14 years after the fact.

It sometimes surprises me how little some seem to know about their pet issues and how long Democrats not named Bernie Sanders have been fighting for them.

I voted for Bill Clinton assuming I might get, oh 40% of what I wanted. It was the decade when I bought a house in the most expensive place in California and could and live a middle class life with the wages I could earn. Raised two daughters. Still surfing. How’s the Trump Era working for you? I want to restore liberal democracy before it’s forgotten. Bernie doesn’t and has said so.

I'm not saying that to be snarky. For some, it seems to be all or nothing. They don't seem inclined to consider what Biden has to offer or what he and Congress could accomplish should we give him a solid House and Senate. A president can only sign what Congress passes and the agenda will be as progressive as can get through Congress.

Beyond that, from what I've seen, the standard answer to your query is usually "Medicare for All", which isn't going to happen anytime soon. Biden supports universal health care through expanding the ACA, of course, but that rarely seems to mollify anyone in the Sanders camp.

I do find it interesting that you're not getting much for responses, though I'm also not surprised.

If Bernie is the nominee we lose the whole ballgame. Who doesn’t understand that?

I think that this pandemic proves that Bernie's ideas are what is needed for all of us and that even though Biden has more delegates,
his approach to health care and education is left over from the 90s.
But I come less and less to DU since there is abuse heaped on anyone who does not support Biden with blind enthusiasm...disappointed to see the silencing here.

BTW, welcome to DU. I'm sorry that you feel disappointed after being here all of two years--apparently the rest of the members here do not measure up to your standards.

Oddly enough, yesterday when I expressed my opinion about Bernie another new member told me that since I said something that was not flattering to Bernie I also had to say something negative about Biden too and I was dishonest for not doing so.

Thank you for being respectful. My number one priority is a national Health Care for All. I have lived in two Western European countries and have experienced universal government health care for all as a patient. I want that for America. What’s more, our daughter is an MD MPH who trains residents in Family Medicine. She has horrific stories about how her hands are tied by the greedy insurance companies. When it comes to providing good health care to patients. She is also now caring for COVID-19 patients as great risk because we don’t have an organized national health care system. In addition she is thinking seriously of immigrating to New Zealand where she can practice medicine more humanely. We are just middle class retirees but have contributed $2K this year to Sanders. That is how passionate we are about HEALTH CARE FOR ALL. Can Joe Biden deliver this?

Through expanding the ACA and adding a public option.

https://joebiden.com/healthcare/

That has a much better chance of making it through Congress and becoming reality than M4A does.

That... what is Joe even thinking?

that Bernie never loses fair and square - he is always "screwed" by some devious force and if not, he would have won?

Bernie's policies were rejected by the electorate. Bernie lost. He is finished.

Now, instead of insisting on what Bernie's policies were, an intelligent person would choose the candidate with the second best policies and defeat Trump.

If you go into a Chevy showroom looking for a metallic scarlet sedan and if it is not available, you don't scream at the dealer as having screwed you and you buy your second color of choice. You don't walk out of the showroom, go to another dealership and buy a lemon yellow SUV that you despise just to spite the dealer of the first showroom. Most people would consider that stupid.

To a Bernie supporter it's the only car of its type. So, if they choose a different car, any car is as good as the other.

My husband is an all-or-nothing Bernie supporter. Only one thing matters to him. Ending corporate dominance. And he thinks only Bernie can do it. So, in his mind, Biden=Trump and if Bernie doesn't win, it just doesn't matter.

I have tried arguing with him and gotten nowhere. So, in general, we don't discuss it.

He also cannot believe that the average working American doesn't want what he wants.

He also believes that Bernie knows what is best for the country and we need his "revolution" to move America back to a place where the average working American gets a fair deal.

He is so convinced that he is right that he will fight to the end for Bernie. Our primaries are at the end of the month.

And indicated disagreement with her spouse.

The threads she set off are quite a bit to wade through, the relevant comments would be easy to overlook.

Be well, and stay safe!

Last November, Bernie and Biden were at the top of my list as candidates I didn't want.

I accept that Biden is the de facto nominee and I will vote for him in November. Might even send him some money. Haven't decided.

The ONLY reason why Bernie is my avatar is because I wanted to have a discussion with some Bernie folks in their forum, a safe space given the hostility here. And I really like that they are giving to COVID-19 charities. I have heard the vehement arguments against supporting Bernie's charities, but I don't "hate" him, so I donate. And I feel very good about it.

I have talked to my cousins who are Bernie supporters. Last time, one went Hillary, the other went Stein. My husband went Stein. I went Hillary.

One cousin really wants a revolution. The other cousin thinks that Bernie is the only person who stands for working class Americans.

I am hoping that all 3 will vote for Biden in November, and so I am trying to learn as much as I can about what they want, and how close Biden can come to it, since they probably don't know his platform.

If you have more questions, please feel free to ask. I completely respect the views of the Biden supporters and understand that there is money involved and Bernie needs to drop out so that Biden can get DNC money for campaigning against Trump. Based on that, I wish he would drop out also. But, it's not going to happen. So the best I can do is try to talk to Bernie supporters and Undecideds in a positive manner, even though I will vote for Biden.

Then why insist that Bernie continue to run and damage the Democratic party and its nominee?

I can understand going home because the "only car" was not available but I don't understand badmouthing the dealership because it lacked the "only car."

Except that Bernie is not really a Democrat, so he has equal scorn for both parties.

I wish there was a rule in the Democratic party that you have to be affiliated with the party for 1 year before you can run for office in the primaries.