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Think. Again.

(21,382 posts)
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 07:32 AM Jan 31

Is it okay to discuss here what is NOT the way forward?

I appreciate that this forum has somewhat relaxed rules to encourage serious discussion on the essential questions of how we, as Democrats, must try to grab the wheel and turn this nation back onto a sane course.

Does that include being able to speak freely about what Democrats should obviously not be doing?

I hope so, because here goes...

These past weeks, Dems across the country (and not just here on DU) have been doing all they can to amplify the message that we must form a strong, united front against the work trump and his people are doing to crush our Democracy and actually de-legitimize our Constitution.

Even before they began nabbing people of color off the streets and filling detention camps with them, some of us were trying to shed light on the statements of some elected Democrats who were sending counter-messaging that this nazi-based regime might be "worked with" in some way, that what they are doing, and what they are telling us they are planning to do, might be acceptable in some way. We responded as loudly as we could against the "yes" votes that were trickling in from Democratic Senators for the very nominees trump will entrust to bring down our governmental institutions.

With some hope, there was backlash, even the corporate media allowed aired segments to show how the will of the sane half of America was calling for resistance, opposition, and unity on the left. A handful of elected officials brought even more attention to the need for steady defiance in the face of "shock and awe" actions of this Administration.

And yet, after watching the devastation unfolding for weeks, today we wake up to this:

"Senate confirms Doug Burgum as interior secretary after Trump tasked him to boost drilling"

The vote was 79-18. More than half of Senate Democrats joined all 53 Republicans in voting for Burgum.

https://apnews.com/article/burgum-trump-interior-secretary-energy-a123dea9f2a1f03a1ed95f316593740d


We can not be normalizing trump's work.

We can not be sending the message to the public that any of his ideas, desires, or actions are acceptable.

We can not be pretending that any of this is "business as usual", because we know it isn't.

We can not become complicit in the undeniable (and undenied ) attempts to dismantle our Democracy.

...and yet that is EXACTLY what some elected Dems are doing every day this crucial week by accepting and agreeing with the people trump is putting in positions of power, authority, and control.

How deep exactly is the rot of America?

We must face hard realities right now.

Will what Democrats see in the mirror be one of the hardest to face?

Will we discover that WE are actually one of the most destructive realities, smoothing the way forward toward the end our 250 year old American Democracy?

WE CAN NOT continue to assist the current fascist regime to annihilate our Democracy.
61 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Is it okay to discuss here what is NOT the way forward? (Original Post) Think. Again. Jan 31 OP
I believe they have to pick their battles, where it's clear the nominee is unqualified for the position surfered Jan 31 #1
I respectfully disagree, If Trump appointed them, they are unqualified ipso facto Walleye Jan 31 #3
I second that. Think. Again. Jan 31 #7
I believe we should ALL be fighting this battle together. Think. Again. Jan 31 #4
Republicans out of power fought ALL the battles LearnedHand Jan 31 #28
I agree, at this point we must face the reality of what we're up against... Think. Again. Jan 31 #43
There was and is zero cost for voting against these nominees. Voltaire2 Jan 31 #29
That's the question I have... Think. Again. Jan 31 #44
Oh I think it is corruption and/or stunning naivete. Voltaire2 Jan 31 #50
Wow, that was the most concise and correct analysis I ever seen. Think. Again. Jan 31 #51
Totally agree! LearnedHand Jan 31 #56
Except for his Labor Secretary Polybius Jan 31 #46
This is a much bigger fight than that... Think. Again. Jan 31 #49
So I assume you expect choie Jan 31 #58
I hate to quote Nancy Reagan, but Democrats should just say no. On anything proposed by Trump. Anything Walleye Jan 31 #2
I agree. Think. Again. Jan 31 #9
We are in a mortal struggle against fascism. We should act accordingly Walleye Jan 31 #14
⬆️⬆️⬆️THIS⬆️⬆️⬆️ Think. Again. Jan 31 #22
Who benefits? When the answer is the working people of America, the children etc. Passages Jan 31 #12
My opinion,none of Republicans' proposals are in good faith. No matter how good they sound they won't work out that way. Walleye Jan 31 #13
That is the truth... Think. Again. Jan 31 #18
I get that. What I am suggesting is, when Trump said lowering drug costs or whatever Passages Jan 31 #27
That's a good point and a good way forward Walleye Jan 31 #32
Agree. They are ruthless, immoral, unethical to the core. Passages Jan 31 #34
Remember how Trump tanked the bipartisan border bill because it might make Biden look good Walleye Jan 31 #36
Yes. Passages Jan 31 #38
Completely agree eom msfiddlestix Jan 31 #57
Excellent post. Think. Again. Jan 31 #15
Thank you. Passages Jan 31 #40
Thanks, I felt it was needed. Think. Again. Jan 31 #41
As Difficult As This Is modrepub Jan 31 #5
You write... Think. Again. Jan 31 #8
Yes, we should give trump's electoral victory the same respect they gave to Joe Biden's. Who won by a bigger margin. Walleye Jan 31 #16
Yes. Think. Again. Jan 31 #19
Electorally, Biden did not win by a bigger margin in 2020 Polybius Jan 31 #47
I'm glad you brought that up... Think. Again. Jan 31 #48
what 'we' are you talking about? Voltaire2 Jan 31 #30
Good point. Think. Again. Jan 31 #42
I live there too. And I agree with you. nt Callie1979 Jan 31 #53
Thanks modrepub Jan 31 #54
Tell me about it. Callie1979 Jan 31 #59
Capitulating to the right for decades. Passages Jan 31 #6
Thank you for posting that Think. Again. Jan 31 #10
I am enraged that ALL Dem leaders don't understand that they should not vote for ANY of them. 58Sunliner Jan 31 #11
I agree, complacency does not defeat fascism Walleye Jan 31 #17
In this situation... Think. Again. Jan 31 #20
That is correct. Walleye Jan 31 #33
I agree, well said. Think. Again. Jan 31 #21
Couldn't agree with you more. Paladin Jan 31 #23
Thank you. Think. Again. Jan 31 #24
Agree. It doesn't matter that the assholes will still be confirmed. But at least Dems would be standing up Nanjeanne Jan 31 #25
Exactly. Think. Again. Jan 31 #26
Democratic leaders seem to be living in a 1970s world. yardwork Jan 31 #31
I am automatically deleting all fundraising requests. Show us you can use the money to defeat fascism Walleye Jan 31 #35
I'm reporting them as junk. yardwork Jan 31 #37
Make sure to let them know WHY your deletin them! Think. Again. Jan 31 #39
I just don't understand how some elected Dems don't see what we are up against. Think. Again. Jan 31 #45
But how Was Burgum NOT qualified? Just because Trump picked him? Callie1979 Jan 31 #52
I have no idea about his qualifications, but... Think. Again. Jan 31 #55
Not all Democrats are the same. Trump is exposing who is who on our side. jalan48 Feb 1 #60
Give people what they want- Shutdown Government! Eddie Haskell 60 Feb 1 #61

Think. Again.

(21,382 posts)
7. I second that.
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 09:06 AM
Jan 31

This idea that (only) Dems should be voting for-or-against depending on nomimee "qualifications" and not the nominee's intentions is absurd.

LearnedHand

(4,442 posts)
28. Republicans out of power fought ALL the battles
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 10:35 AM
Jan 31

Why should Dems then "pick" their battles? How's that working out currently? This bullshit never has worked and never will.

Think. Again.

(21,382 posts)
44. That's the question I have...
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 12:46 PM
Jan 31

Exactly what benefit do the Dems who vote yes see in weakening America's resolve to fight against fascism???

Voltaire2

(15,162 posts)
50. Oh I think it is corruption and/or stunning naivete.
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 02:19 PM
Jan 31

Remember that under our political system these federal legislators are almost all utterly dependent on big money donors, and are instructed by 'consultants' as to how to behave correctly in order to get the money they need to run their next campaign.

Then there is this decades long 'third way'/ 'democratic leadership committee' ideology that is pervasive in the party that political success requires 'capturing the center'. This is the legacy of the Clinton, Obama, and to a lesser extent Biden presidencies that rejects left economic populism (for example medicare for all), views itself as 'pro business' (supporting deregulation, for example), and grudgingly accommodates social issues in order to shore up support from the left.

Since the emergence of Trump and the more or less acknowledged failure of the neoliberal economic system, this position has simply been reduced to defending institutional traditions from the past (e.g. 'bipartisanship') in the face of a radical fascist Republican Party that is actively trying to destroy not only the traditions but the institutions themselves.

So we have the comic farce of centrist Democrats proudly boasting that they are reaching across the aisle 'to get things done', when the people they are reaching out to basically want them in prison or dead.

It is fucking infuriating.

Polybius

(19,080 posts)
46. Except for his Labor Secretary
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 01:23 PM
Jan 31

He picked someone good, because he owed Teamster's Sean O'Brian a favor. She needs to get in.

Passages

(1,752 posts)
12. Who benefits? When the answer is the working people of America, the children etc.
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 09:24 AM
Jan 31

Then vote with them on legislation IF/WHEN its purpose yields to those we know need it the most.

These confirmation position votes are infuriating...a completely different matter.

Tell them the individual is unacceptable because they are!

Walleye

(37,505 posts)
13. My opinion,none of Republicans' proposals are in good faith. No matter how good they sound they won't work out that way.
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 09:51 AM
Jan 31

Even if we did try to work with them, they would twist it. Use it against us and we still wouldn’t get the good legislation. I will believe this until I see otherwise

Think. Again.

(21,382 posts)
18. That is the truth...
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 09:57 AM
Jan 31

...the confusing part is that the Dems know this (or should know it by now) and still they risk normalizing this entire situation by voting "yes", knowing full-well the nominees will probably get in anyway.

The question is, WHY are they normalizing this by voting yes?

Passages

(1,752 posts)
27. I get that. What I am suggesting is, when Trump said lowering drug costs or whatever
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 10:33 AM
Jan 31

populist promises, use legislation to call him on it. It would have to be written to help who he said it should help.

One, if there is no such legislation, we shout from the rooftops how he reneged on that campaign promise.

If the GOP ever writes up legislation that addresses lower drug costs in any way that intentionally undermines it in any fashion, we shout that out and campaign on delivering what Americans need.

I don't see saying no across the board as helpful to the American people, and in turn, it hurts Democrats.





Walleye

(37,505 posts)
32. That's a good point and a good way forward
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 10:54 AM
Jan 31

I just think we have to realize with Trump. We’re not dealing with a rational mind, and the Republicans are not trustworthy at all.

Passages

(1,752 posts)
38. Yes.
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 11:08 AM
Jan 31

But that bill was not one as a Democrat I would have supported.

When we go to the right, voters end up going with the truer Republican. Wasn't it Truman who warned about that?

Trump proved he has control over his party so I don't see how we gained anything having such harsh policies in the first place.

I believe we have allowed the GOP to frame us and immigrants as evil with lies for a very long time. I wish we used a very different approach...like the truth.


Tax Payments by Undocumented Immigrants – ITEP

itep.org
https://itep.org › undocumented-immigrants-taxes-2024
by C Davis · Cited by 4 — Undocumented immigrants paid $96.7 billion in federal, state, and local taxes in 2022. Providing access to work authorization for ...

modrepub

(3,696 posts)
5. As Difficult As This Is
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 08:43 AM
Jan 31

It has to be done.

I sat in line for 2+ hours voting last November. I live in a Red area and there were plenty of folks in Trump garb, including flags on their shinny clean trucks. They were so happy to be voting for their man who was going to right all the wrongs. It seemed many of them had little to no experience voting; some were unsure if they were in the right polling place. Low engaged voters. My heart sank, I knew my state (PA) was probably going over to Trump.

I've had many arguments with my family and friends about how strongly to oppose Trump's policies and appointees. And I recognize there's a chance these folks are going to take steps to institutionalize Republican control into the future. But, Trump won the election. I don't believe in conspiracies or voter suppression. I saw the marginally engaged voters who IMHO put Trump into office with my own eyes. So be it; Trump has a right to put his people in positions of power not matter how incompetent they are (and boy, some of them sure are).

Will we suffer under Trump and his minions? It's early, the book is still being written. Personally, I believe Trump is a train wreck, dumpster fire, and whatever catastrophic analogy you want to insert. He's a royal fuck up.

But elections have consequences and we need to continue to point out Trump's utter incompetency and every time he screws up. He has to own it and we have to make sure he owns it. That means holding the M$M to it also. It sucks we're all going to have to suffer. But sometimes you just have to take it to demonstrate to folks what poor decisions they have made and hope they do better next time.

Think. Again.

(21,382 posts)
8. You write...
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 09:09 AM
Jan 31

"Will we suffer under Trump and his minions? It's early, the book is still being written."

I believe this is a situation where we don't have the luxury of waiting to see exactly how badly it turns out before we try to stop it from turning out badly.

Walleye

(37,505 posts)
16. Yes, we should give trump's electoral victory the same respect they gave to Joe Biden's. Who won by a bigger margin.
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 09:55 AM
Jan 31

Think. Again.

(21,382 posts)
48. I'm glad you brought that up...
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 01:48 PM
Jan 31

It's obvious that the Democratic party needs to focus our attention on important races at election times.

Voltaire2

(15,162 posts)
30. what 'we' are you talking about?
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 10:42 AM
Jan 31

People here in this country are already suffering from this fascist regime. I guess they are invisible to you or not part of whatever this 'we' is.

Passages

(1,752 posts)
6. Capitulating to the right for decades.
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 09:05 AM
Jan 31

Neoliberalism doesn't remedy the ills of unbridled capitalism and it never will. What it did accomplish was manifest fertile ground for a demagogue to win, twice.

Our losses:
Obama was elected in 2008, Democratic Party lost a total of 15 state houses chambers, 14 state senate chambers, 960 state legislative seats, 10 governorships, 62 seats in Congress, and 11 seats in the Senate.

How Neoliberalism Failed, and What a Better Society Could Look Like
August 7, 2024

By Joseph Stiglitz

SNIP
Power

Under neoliberalism, what was really going on was not a liberalization agenda, it was a “rewriting-of-the-rules” agenda6—rewriting the rules in ways that advantaged some groups and disadvantaged others. Rewriting the rules is political. It’s about power. The economic model that underlaid neoliberalism was one with perfect markets, with competitive equilibrium in which no one had power, meaning that neoliberalism began with a view that power doesn’t exist. It began with that idea as a presumption, and with that belief allowed concentrated centers of power to flourish. Financial liberalization led to the unfettered growth of the financial sector, which became a major center of power in the American economy.

https://rooseveltinstitute.org/publications/how-neoliberalism-failed/



58Sunliner

(5,167 posts)
11. I am enraged that ALL Dem leaders don't understand that they should not vote for ANY of them.
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 09:19 AM
Jan 31

What is this BS about picking battles??!! It's all a battle. They are at war against democracy and the US. When at war don't give an inch. If we don't take to the streets, we the people will have nothing left. We can not sit back and wait for leaders. They are apparently ok with that slippery slope sliding into fascism.

Paladin

(29,330 posts)
23. Couldn't agree with you more.
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 10:23 AM
Jan 31

Democrats and their elected representatives need to be fighting, right now. Pointed messages to politicians, economic boycotts, street demonstrations---immediately. The time for subtlety and nuanced measures has disappeared during the course of trump's first few days in office. We need decisive action just as soon as possible. I'm not ready to cede control of this nation to the brain-dead fascists. Enough.

Nanjeanne

(5,563 posts)
25. Agree. It doesn't matter that the assholes will still be confirmed. But at least Dems would be standing up
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 10:28 AM
Jan 31

together and saying THIS IS NOT RIGHT AND WE DEMAND BETTER.

yardwork

(65,359 posts)
31. Democratic leaders seem to be living in a 1970s world.
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 10:49 AM
Jan 31

It's been 50 years of this crap from Republicans and they e taken us to the brink.

WAKE UP, Chuck Schumer, Hakeem Jeffries, and the rest of you.

STOP:
- sending fundraising texts begging me for $5 instead of telling me what you're doing to fight.

- voting for Trump's nominees. If this situation were reversed, Republican senators would be voting against every single nominee - and they'd be obstructing procedures and delaying votes in any way possible. Why isn't Schumer doing this???

- sending texts with bizarre statements about "the Lord is on his Throne." I don't believe that. It's not remotely a comfort to me. That text from Jeffries literally scared me.

- saying namby pamby things to the media that frame Trump as something kind of cute and weird instead of AN IMMEDIATE THREAT TO OUR DEMOCRACY.

I've never felt so frightened and angry.

yardwork

(65,359 posts)
37. I'm reporting them as junk.
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 11:03 AM
Jan 31

The DNC should pay attention to that. A lifelong Democrat is deleting my own party's emails and reporting them as junk.

WAKE UP.

Think. Again.

(21,382 posts)
45. I just don't understand how some elected Dems don't see what we are up against.
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 12:50 PM
Jan 31

Are they just so comfortable and safe that they think this is all fine?

What will it take to make them hear us?

Callie1979

(517 posts)
52. But how Was Burgum NOT qualified? Just because Trump picked him?
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 02:26 PM
Jan 31

That alone isnt a legit reason to deny him. He's NOT Gaetz, Kennedy or Hegseth (among others)
He's a Governor so there's management experience.
He started a business in clean tech & life sciences
He started other successful businesses

He's far more qualifed to be president than TRUMP is.

Think. Again.

(21,382 posts)
55. I have no idea about his qualifications, but...
Fri Jan 31, 2025, 02:38 PM
Jan 31

...his intention to drag the department backward by promoting obsolete energy technology is enough to deny him.

Annd yes, the fact that a destructive fascist President picked him is DEFINITELY enough reason not to lend Democratic Party support and legitimacy to his regime.

Eddie Haskell 60

(18 posts)
61. Give people what they want- Shutdown Government!
Sat Feb 1, 2025, 11:48 AM
Feb 1

Funding deadline is coming up on March 14th, 2025. Democrats MUST reject all proposals until we return to acceptable Constitutional norms. Although Republicans are likely to shutdown government on their own, this is one of the last areas where the Democratic party will have any impacts. Yes, people will be financially hurt but messaging and facts are clearly not getting to the American people. Hit them in their pocketbooks and maybe they'll start listening and paying attention.

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