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thucythucy

(8,819 posts)
Sun Oct 27, 2024, 07:18 AM Oct 2024

My parents grew up in Nazi Germany. [View all]

Most of my extended family still lives in Germany today, and I am in fact the very first member of my family to be born in the USA.

As an adolescent, learning about the history of my parents' homeland, I would wonder and ask: "How could people have fallen for such hate filled nonsense? How could such an evil and corrupt and even insane regime have been able to commit the horrors that it did, with the support, or at least the compliance, of so many ordinary people?"

I read extensively, looking for answers. One of my go-to's of the time was William Shirer, and I just recently re-read End of a Berlin Diary, the sequel to Berlin Diary which I've read maybe a dozen times now.

In it Shirer basically claims that there was something inherent in German psychology that made them, in essence, a culture of sadists. He held pretty much all Germans accountable, and was in favor of the harshest penalties: stripping Germany of all industry, dividing up the country into various segments, even going so far as to seem to exalt in the suffering of ordinary Germans "sleeping in their holes in the ground" under the ruins of their cities. He also--and I suppose this was a view widely held at the time--downplays the mass rapes that accompanied the conquest of German towns and cities, most especially Berlin, and the widespread atrocities committed against ethnic Germans forced to flee areas, such as the Sudetenland, where their families had lived for generations. Germans, he pretty outright said, deserved such abuse, even the women and girls, on account of their complicity in the Nazi horrors. They were irredeemable, and needed to be crushed for all time.

As an adolescent and young adult I pretty much agreed with his analysis, carrying my own portion of guilt for atrocities committed years before I was born. I was at the very least uneasy about his seeming dismissal of the horrors of rape, but otherwise accepted his analysis, even of my own parents.

But I wonder now what Shirer would think of America in the era of Trump. Not that he was naive about the uglier aspects of American life. He had, after all, left the US in the early 1920s, disgusted, he says, with the materialism, the complacency, the small mindedness of American culture, and spent the next decades in India, Afghanistan, Europe.

Still, I wonder if the America we see today would make him re-think his attitude to ordinary Germans of the time. Or if, instead, he would place Americans and American culture in much the same disrepute as he does Germans.

Granted, we haven't come close to the sort of madness and horror and sadism of Germany 1933 to 1945. We haven't as yet murdered millions and plunged the entire world into war.

But is it entirely wrong to think that the potential is there? That so many of our fellow citizens would be up for the ride, adopting their own version of the slogan: "The Fuhrer is always right?"

There's a quote that to me strikes at the heart of the matter:

"In psychological terms, the inhabitants of the Third Reich were as normal as people in all other societies at all other times. The spectrum of perpetrators was a cross section of normal society. No specific group of people proved immune to the temptation, in Gunther Ander's phrase, of 'inhumanity with impunity.' The real-life experiment that was the Third Reich did not reduce the variables of personality to absolute zero. But it showed them to be of comparatively slight, indeed often negligible, importance." -- Sinke Neitzel and Harald Weizer, Soldaten: On Fighting, Killing and Dying.

I think too of Daniel Jonah Goldhagen, Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust.

And now we have the spectacle of a billionaire kowtowing to an obvious fascist. Someone who by any measure has the power and resources to stand firm and resist. Is it fear? Greed? Might it be Sympathy for the Devil?

If Harris wins--and I of course hope and even, with some trepidation, expect that she will--we need as a society to explore seriously how and why we've come so close to the abyss. And here "the experiment that was the Third Reich" might well be instructive. Why do some people succumb to the temptation, and others--often so few--resist? How do we encourage the likes of Hans and Sophie Scholl, and prevent the seduction of the likes of Albert Speer--to me the closest analogy I can see to Bezos?

I think these are among the most important questions, if not the most important questions, of our time.

If you've read this far, thank you for your time and attention, and best wishes to you and yours.

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This hits home for someone like me who grew up in the South MaryMagdaline Oct 2024 #1
You pretty much traced the evolution of my thought as well. thucythucy Oct 2024 #3
The White Rose students are so inspirational MaryMagdaline Oct 2024 #7
There is an excellent film about the Scholls. thucythucy Oct 2024 #13
Powerful. No I've not seen it. mountain grammy Oct 2024 #36
Perhaps you've seen this, but I highly recommend thucythucy Oct 2024 #65
Thank you. mountain grammy Oct 2024 #96
Have not seen it. Thank you for the recommendation MaryMagdaline Oct 2024 #49
I remember ... that even her Executioner Dan Oct 2024 #73
Schindler's List - The Liquidation of The Ghetto Scene TomCADem Oct 2024 #105
With DJT in, could SCOTUS reverse integration, BadgerKid Oct 2024 #14
Yup. IrishAfricanAmerican Oct 2024 #20
The whole "leave it to the states" orthoclad Oct 2024 #55
This reminded me of my high school years. Susan Calvin Oct 2024 #23
Yes! A lot going on amongst the adults who really made it work MaryMagdaline Oct 2024 #50
Adults were the reason we had so much trouble 4catsmom Oct 2024 #91
Southerners like me know full well that the poor treatment of others never has been allegorical oracle Oct 2024 #78
And in many non-Southerners treated the Native Americans poorly raccoon Oct 2024 #117
I was struck by an account from a Russian soldier marching on Berlin through Germany Shermann Oct 2024 #2
I've read accounts like that as well. thucythucy Oct 2024 #5
One can't help but think of the relative luxury Americans enjoy ... Martin Eden Oct 2024 #38
My mother grew up as a displaced person in Austria Marigold Oct 2024 #48
Yes, that's very relevant. yardwork Oct 2024 #16
It's strange, isn't it? thucythucy Oct 2024 #24
I hadn't thought of that. yardwork Oct 2024 #26
The Nazis wanted /lebensraum/ -- "living room" -- in order to grow and expand their society. eppur_se_muova Oct 2024 #61
Lebensraum. AKA "Elbow Room" Wednesdays Oct 2024 #84
Wealth and splendor moondust Oct 2024 #81
This may not seem immediately applicable to your post. . . Collimator Oct 2024 #87
I have always wondered about that. murielm99 Oct 2024 #107
Yes, it could happen here Mysterian Oct 2024 #4
People who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it...nt mitch96 Oct 2024 #25
I don't know if Americans are unique in this thucythucy Oct 2024 #28
" I find history so fascinating.".. Same here. When I was a kid to keep myself amused I would read the encyclopedia mitch96 Oct 2024 #64
Actually, it's a good bit more... GiqueCee Oct 2024 #41
In a nutshell Evolve Dammit Oct 2024 #63
south america mostly et tu Oct 2024 #71
"...how and why we've come so close to the abyss." J_William_Ryan Oct 2024 #6
Which is a terrifying thought. thucythucy Oct 2024 #10
This is why if Harris wins and there is indeed a "blue wave" its is not so much a victory hadEnuf Oct 2024 #56
All DUers should read this malaise Oct 2024 #8
Thank you. thucythucy Oct 2024 #11
K&R demmiblue Oct 2024 #9
"Inhumanity with impunity." Kid Berwyn Oct 2024 #12
I was struck by that phrase as well. thucythucy Oct 2024 #17
My wife's family is from Germany... Kid Berwyn Oct 2024 #39
Thank you! That's a wonderful story. thucythucy Oct 2024 #44
A visit to Germany Beck23 Oct 2024 #47
My best friend's Mom grew up in Nazi Germany. Wonderful lady and loved kids. She was a war bride that came mitch96 Oct 2024 #15
I had and have quite a few Jewish friends. thucythucy Oct 2024 #19
My parents were Holocaust survivors..Auschwitz/Bergen Belsen... agingdem Oct 2024 #79
When Trump was selected in 2016 thucythucy Oct 2024 #88
My mom's best friend was born in Nazi Germany, but raised in Switzerland MyMission Oct 2024 #67
"She passed away earlier this year at age 95, feisty until the end!". My Friends Mom died last year at 92 mitch96 Oct 2024 #83
As we evolved, we became community creatures ismnotwasm Oct 2024 #18
I've read some Butler, thucythucy Oct 2024 #22
You will love it! ismnotwasm Oct 2024 #35
The influence of Murdoch and the like should be underestimated. The Commuication Act of 1996, led us to where JohnSJ Oct 2024 #21
Joe Rogan represents the "martial arts" subculture that thinks violence is entertaining William Seger Oct 2024 #27
As a group, Germans have been cleaning up their act. Turbineguy Oct 2024 #29
There's a book you might find interesting thucythucy Oct 2024 #32
Thanks! Turbineguy Oct 2024 #34
Thank you for this very thoughtful, thorough, post. One thing that I notice niyad Oct 2024 #30
You have to follow the money to see the full picture Farmer-Rick Oct 2024 #75
Two things come immediately to mind: Joinfortmill Oct 2024 #31
Be careful with revenge Beck23 Oct 2024 #33
Great post, thank you! Martin Eden Oct 2024 #37
I empathize with Shirer as well. thucythucy Oct 2024 #40
Privileged groups are aggrieved when the formerly oppressed start winning the struggle for equality Martin Eden Oct 2024 #51
Some German churches displayed the swastika Beck23 Oct 2024 #43
Some Germans I know who have visited America thucythucy Oct 2024 #45
I was given a free copy of a biography of Morgenthau, FDR's advisor, at an event at the FDR historical site. NNadir Oct 2024 #42
Shirer's thoughts on dealing with post war Germany thucythucy Oct 2024 #54
I know I've looked at, and contemplated reading Berlin Diary, but didn't and probably never will. NNadir Oct 2024 #68
I forget who said this, maybe Clemenceau, thucythucy Oct 2024 #85
I am mostly familiar with Ludendorff for his beer hall adventures with Hitler; your description validates his... NNadir Oct 2024 #104
Thank you so much for your very interesting and informative post. llmart Oct 2024 #46
I'm saddened to read about your experience growing up. thucythucy Oct 2024 #59
Well written DemonGoddess Oct 2024 #52
My father fled Europe orthoclad Oct 2024 #53
My brother married a German girl. Swede Oct 2024 #57
That's a sound assessment. bucolic_frolic Oct 2024 #58
Thank you for your thoughtful essay! BlueMTexpat Oct 2024 #60
Have you seen this film? thucythucy Oct 2024 #66
No, I haven't seen the film. BlueMTexpat Oct 2024 #109
"..we need as a society to explore seriously how and why we've come so close to the abyss." Well said. paleotn Oct 2024 #62
Cultural toxicity is the greatest challenge our species faced... TygrBright Oct 2024 #69
I think of our entire collective psyche as basically fascist. ananda Oct 2024 #70
Fascinating and illuminating thread! cilla4progress Oct 2024 #72
I believe it's human gravity, we're all literally made of stardust, Uncle Joe Oct 2024 #74
Thank you for this very thoughtful post Wild blueberry Oct 2024 #76
I read "Hitler's Willing Executioners" in 1998 Envirogal Oct 2024 #77
K&R Blue Owl Oct 2024 #80
For what it's worth many of the questions we ask moniss Oct 2024 #82
Thank you for your reply. thucythucy Oct 2024 #90
Thank you for the kind words and moniss Oct 2024 #98
I watched the episode. thucythucy Oct 2024 #122
Thank you for the book moniss Oct 2024 #123
Remember, ForgedCrank Oct 2024 #86
Before Trump I would have agreed with you. thucythucy Oct 2024 #93
Great post! Your question was answered by the psychologist, Alice Miller. Bozvotros Oct 2024 #89
To a certain extent yes but moniss Oct 2024 #100
I am reminded of this UpInArms Oct 2024 #92
Thank you for the link. thucythucy Oct 2024 #94
Thanks for that link. Bozvotros Oct 2024 #95
When he menaced Hillary Clinton at the debate UpInArms Oct 2024 #97
Thank you so much for your post Sparkly Oct 2024 #99
Sad to say, no. thucythucy Oct 2024 #102
It is a mistake to think the Germans were unique or worse than other people alarimer Oct 2024 #101
I can't help but think of . . . Richard D Oct 2024 #103
Thank you for this thoughtful piece... Trueblue Texan Oct 2024 #106
What an interesting post soandso Oct 2024 #108
Sadly, that won't happen. OldBaldy1701E Oct 2024 #110
There has been a war on education. the_sly_pig Oct 2024 #111
The U.S.A.'s legacy of slavery, brutal conquest, and genocide gave us the privileges we enjoy today. Pinback Oct 2024 #112
"Granted, we haven't come close to the sort of madness and horror and sadism of Germany 1933 to 1945." BumRushDaShow Oct 2024 #113
You're right about these horrid aspects of American history, thucythucy Oct 2024 #115
I live a few miles from "Germantown" BumRushDaShow Oct 2024 #116
This statement from your post "triggered" me. Collimator Oct 2024 #118
Dr. Seuss (Theodor Geisel) BumRushDaShow Oct 2024 #119
Thank you again for this thoughtful and informative post. thucythucy Oct 2024 #121
Well said. K & R nt Persondem Oct 2024 #114
My wife is German, and her parents grew up in the Germany of the National Socialists. DFW Oct 2024 #120
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