Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

DFW

(57,067 posts)
120. My wife is German, and her parents grew up in the Germany of the National Socialists.
Tue Oct 29, 2024, 07:32 AM
Oct 2024

Hitler's Luftwaffe chief (and close confidant) Hermann Göring was captured after the end of the war, and was interviewed in his cell. He was remarkably open and frank about how Hitler and his cabal got the people to do their bidding:

Göring: Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.

Gilbert [the interviewer]: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.

Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.
----------------------------------------------------------

Göring: "Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece?"

My wife's father was that "poor slob on a farm." He was drafted off his farm at age 17, sent to Stalingrad, and did not return in one piece. He left a leg at Stalingrad, blown off by a Russian artillery shell. He returned at age 19, a cripple obviously no longer to do farm work, and extremely resentful of the regime that was responsible. He was fortunate enough to find a woman who was willing to overlook his grave wounds, and marry him. That was my wife's mom, who lost three brothers in the war, the last of whom was killed trying to retreat to his home, dying five kilometers before making back. My father-in-law later became a loan officer at a rural bank that helped out farmers. There were four hundred people at his funeral, most of them people whose existences he had saved by helping them out at the bank. He rarely talked about his war experiences, saying they were too painful to bring up. He would only say that if he had grandchildren, that he hoped that they would all be girls, so that they could never be drafted into the military. Fate was to grant him that wish. Much later, Germany abolished compulsory military service altogether.

After the war ended, my wife's grandfather on her mother's side was asked by a (newly former) Nazi neighbor not to denounce him to the Allies after the war, which he agreed to. The Nazi neighbor had heard him listening to the British radio broadcasts during the war, which carried the death penalty. He told my wife's grandfather that due to their former friendship, he would not turn him in, though warned him to be discreet about it. After the war, my wife's grandfather returned the favor. My wife's mom said that everybody in their little village knew the Jews were rounded up and disappeared, but only rumors circulated about what had happened to them. The fact that none of them returned was rather indicative, of course.

In the town we now live in, our girls went to the Anne Frank Elementary School. The Geschwister Scholl School is down the road. These schools don't just carry the names. They also teach the children about who the school was named after, and why. ("Geschwister" is a German word meaning siblings)

The one vestige of the "old" Germany, meaning Kaiser Wilhelm II, that lingers, and weighs down the whole country, is the "Beamtentum." Beamten are the "civil (sometimes) servants" who cannot be fired, and whose arbitrary decisions are almost impossible to contest. The status encompasses ten times as many people as are necessary. The old "authority is everything" mentality has not been eradicated. Beamten encompass city hall workers, police, customs officials, teachers, administrators, tax office workers, judges, government document overseers--in short, everyone who has control over any aspect of your life. They are untouchable, and are never wrong. They are the real life version of the person who can shoot some down on Fifth Avenue in cold blood and never be touched for it. It is the one aspect of German life that so many Germans hate, and no one dares attack. About 30 years ago, one guy in Düsseldorf established an "office for the pursuing of misbehaving by Beamten." It started out sort of tongue-in-cheek, but the guy was soon inundated with requests of help from of frustrated Germans who got doors slammed in their faces by uncaring Beamten, and didn't know where else to turn. The guy got so popular that the government finally shut him down (dubious grounds, but they are the government), claiming that there were "proper channels" for citizens to register complaints against overly eager (or overly uncaring) Beamten.

In 1949, the Allies formed two German states. Stalin formed the socialist "German Democratic Republic." They got one out of three right--it was German. The USA/GB/F trio formed the Federal Republic of Germany. The Federal Republic (i.e. West Germany), under the Allies, decided to have the country confront its Nazi past, and have it as part of the school curriculum. East Germany, under the Soviets, decided to adopt the attitude that it had rid itself completely of Nazis (no one here but good socialists!), and that an examination of the Nazi past was therefore not necessary. Indeed, the East German military adopted the Nazi uniform and the goose-stepping march of the Nazi Wehrmacht. The only thing was different was the oddball helmet. The West Germans also had a military, and kept the old helmets, but retained nothing else of the old Nazi Regime. The train system of the west became the "Bundesbahn," or Federal Railway. The socialists in the east kept the name Reichsbahn for their railway system, unchanged from the Kaiser, the Weimarer Republik, and then the Third Reich. When the Wall came down, all the latent rightist extremist sentiment, suppressed for 40 years in the East, suddenly was allowed to resurface in all its ugly splendor, and the current far right extremist party, the "Alternative for Germany," or AfD, enjoys a scary 35% popularity in the East, where there used to be "nobody here but us socialists."

I visited East Berlin several times. Same language, but one freaky place. Got my newspaper confiscated at the border, and "congregations" of more than four people at restaurants and cafés were forbidden (someone might be spreading ideas, after all). Twice, upon returning to West Berlin, the East Germans pulled me aside and interrogated me for an hour in a windowless room. "Why were you here?" (never seen it before/showing my friend from Holland who had never seen it before) "Whom did you visit?" (I don't know anybody here) "Empty your pockets!" (I did, had to explain who each business card I had belonged to) "Why do you speak German?" (I took it in college). I think if I had let on that I spoke Russian, I would have been there an extra week. I was the only one in the room who didn't have a gun, an East German uniform or the right to stand up without permission. They finally let me go. Heil Honecker!

On the other hand, as the line from "Fiddler on the Roof" goes.........We have some solid friends here for whom we would do anything, and who would do anything for us. When pregnant with our first daughter, we attended a "baby group" led by an obstetrician, telling us about what to expect, right up to the moment of birth. We were maybe 8 or 9 couples, and all but one form the core of our closest friends in our small town outside Düsseldorf, now 40 years later. There is the same mix of efficiency and incompetence in service, both public and private, that one might expect in any first world society. As opposed to the USA, the police are reluctant to get involved in pursuing theft or organized crime, as they don't like opponents who shoot back. Organized crime has a pretty easy time of it here as long as they don't get violent. Some of the younger generation of cops and officials are slowly being allowed to have a sense of humor. I was stopped in the train back from Switzerland to Germany two days ago by a troop of three German customs officers. They asked if I lived in Switzerland (no, I live in Germany). Was I in Switzerland for a visit or for work (for work). Did I buy anything (yes, Ramseier apple juice and Sprüngli pastry). They looked around and asked if the suitcase behind me was mine. Not knowing that there was one, I turned around to see what they were talking about. I said, no, that one lay "outside my jurisdiction." That made them laugh. Not realizing that I wasn't German, they didn't ask for any ID, and left me alone, saying "pleasant journey." They have their problems, for sure. But as long as there is a willingness to recognize that and, however latent, a will to do something about it, I'm content for the moment to stay here (it'd be nice if they stopped trying to tax me at 73%). Having a dream wife who is most comfortable living in her home country can't be underestimated as a deciding factor. Those few DUers who have met her know what I am talking about.

Finally, I remember at our wedding, where my dad, who was a US Army grunt in World War II, and my wife's dad, who, however reluctantly (the poor slob on the farm, remember), was in the German army in the same war, got along just fine, despite their language difficulty.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

This hits home for someone like me who grew up in the South MaryMagdaline Oct 2024 #1
You pretty much traced the evolution of my thought as well. thucythucy Oct 2024 #3
The White Rose students are so inspirational MaryMagdaline Oct 2024 #7
There is an excellent film about the Scholls. thucythucy Oct 2024 #13
Powerful. No I've not seen it. mountain grammy Oct 2024 #36
Perhaps you've seen this, but I highly recommend thucythucy Oct 2024 #65
Thank you. mountain grammy Oct 2024 #96
Have not seen it. Thank you for the recommendation MaryMagdaline Oct 2024 #49
I remember ... that even her Executioner Dan Oct 2024 #73
Schindler's List - The Liquidation of The Ghetto Scene TomCADem Oct 2024 #105
With DJT in, could SCOTUS reverse integration, BadgerKid Oct 2024 #14
Yup. IrishAfricanAmerican Oct 2024 #20
The whole "leave it to the states" orthoclad Oct 2024 #55
This reminded me of my high school years. Susan Calvin Oct 2024 #23
Yes! A lot going on amongst the adults who really made it work MaryMagdaline Oct 2024 #50
Adults were the reason we had so much trouble 4catsmom Oct 2024 #91
Southerners like me know full well that the poor treatment of others never has been allegorical oracle Oct 2024 #78
And in many non-Southerners treated the Native Americans poorly raccoon Oct 2024 #117
I was struck by an account from a Russian soldier marching on Berlin through Germany Shermann Oct 2024 #2
I've read accounts like that as well. thucythucy Oct 2024 #5
One can't help but think of the relative luxury Americans enjoy ... Martin Eden Oct 2024 #38
My mother grew up as a displaced person in Austria Marigold Oct 2024 #48
Yes, that's very relevant. yardwork Oct 2024 #16
It's strange, isn't it? thucythucy Oct 2024 #24
I hadn't thought of that. yardwork Oct 2024 #26
The Nazis wanted /lebensraum/ -- "living room" -- in order to grow and expand their society. eppur_se_muova Oct 2024 #61
Lebensraum. AKA "Elbow Room" Wednesdays Oct 2024 #84
Wealth and splendor moondust Oct 2024 #81
This may not seem immediately applicable to your post. . . Collimator Oct 2024 #87
I have always wondered about that. murielm99 Oct 2024 #107
Yes, it could happen here Mysterian Oct 2024 #4
People who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it...nt mitch96 Oct 2024 #25
I don't know if Americans are unique in this thucythucy Oct 2024 #28
" I find history so fascinating.".. Same here. When I was a kid to keep myself amused I would read the encyclopedia mitch96 Oct 2024 #64
Actually, it's a good bit more... GiqueCee Oct 2024 #41
In a nutshell Evolve Dammit Oct 2024 #63
south america mostly et tu Oct 2024 #71
"...how and why we've come so close to the abyss." J_William_Ryan Oct 2024 #6
Which is a terrifying thought. thucythucy Oct 2024 #10
This is why if Harris wins and there is indeed a "blue wave" its is not so much a victory hadEnuf Oct 2024 #56
All DUers should read this malaise Oct 2024 #8
Thank you. thucythucy Oct 2024 #11
K&R demmiblue Oct 2024 #9
"Inhumanity with impunity." Kid Berwyn Oct 2024 #12
I was struck by that phrase as well. thucythucy Oct 2024 #17
My wife's family is from Germany... Kid Berwyn Oct 2024 #39
Thank you! That's a wonderful story. thucythucy Oct 2024 #44
A visit to Germany Beck23 Oct 2024 #47
My best friend's Mom grew up in Nazi Germany. Wonderful lady and loved kids. She was a war bride that came mitch96 Oct 2024 #15
I had and have quite a few Jewish friends. thucythucy Oct 2024 #19
My parents were Holocaust survivors..Auschwitz/Bergen Belsen... agingdem Oct 2024 #79
When Trump was selected in 2016 thucythucy Oct 2024 #88
My mom's best friend was born in Nazi Germany, but raised in Switzerland MyMission Oct 2024 #67
"She passed away earlier this year at age 95, feisty until the end!". My Friends Mom died last year at 92 mitch96 Oct 2024 #83
As we evolved, we became community creatures ismnotwasm Oct 2024 #18
I've read some Butler, thucythucy Oct 2024 #22
You will love it! ismnotwasm Oct 2024 #35
The influence of Murdoch and the like should be underestimated. The Commuication Act of 1996, led us to where JohnSJ Oct 2024 #21
Joe Rogan represents the "martial arts" subculture that thinks violence is entertaining William Seger Oct 2024 #27
As a group, Germans have been cleaning up their act. Turbineguy Oct 2024 #29
There's a book you might find interesting thucythucy Oct 2024 #32
Thanks! Turbineguy Oct 2024 #34
Thank you for this very thoughtful, thorough, post. One thing that I notice niyad Oct 2024 #30
You have to follow the money to see the full picture Farmer-Rick Oct 2024 #75
Two things come immediately to mind: Joinfortmill Oct 2024 #31
Be careful with revenge Beck23 Oct 2024 #33
Great post, thank you! Martin Eden Oct 2024 #37
I empathize with Shirer as well. thucythucy Oct 2024 #40
Privileged groups are aggrieved when the formerly oppressed start winning the struggle for equality Martin Eden Oct 2024 #51
Some German churches displayed the swastika Beck23 Oct 2024 #43
Some Germans I know who have visited America thucythucy Oct 2024 #45
I was given a free copy of a biography of Morgenthau, FDR's advisor, at an event at the FDR historical site. NNadir Oct 2024 #42
Shirer's thoughts on dealing with post war Germany thucythucy Oct 2024 #54
I know I've looked at, and contemplated reading Berlin Diary, but didn't and probably never will. NNadir Oct 2024 #68
I forget who said this, maybe Clemenceau, thucythucy Oct 2024 #85
I am mostly familiar with Ludendorff for his beer hall adventures with Hitler; your description validates his... NNadir Oct 2024 #104
Thank you so much for your very interesting and informative post. llmart Oct 2024 #46
I'm saddened to read about your experience growing up. thucythucy Oct 2024 #59
Well written DemonGoddess Oct 2024 #52
My father fled Europe orthoclad Oct 2024 #53
My brother married a German girl. Swede Oct 2024 #57
That's a sound assessment. bucolic_frolic Oct 2024 #58
Thank you for your thoughtful essay! BlueMTexpat Oct 2024 #60
Have you seen this film? thucythucy Oct 2024 #66
No, I haven't seen the film. BlueMTexpat Oct 2024 #109
"..we need as a society to explore seriously how and why we've come so close to the abyss." Well said. paleotn Oct 2024 #62
Cultural toxicity is the greatest challenge our species faced... TygrBright Oct 2024 #69
I think of our entire collective psyche as basically fascist. ananda Oct 2024 #70
Fascinating and illuminating thread! cilla4progress Oct 2024 #72
I believe it's human gravity, we're all literally made of stardust, Uncle Joe Oct 2024 #74
Thank you for this very thoughtful post Wild blueberry Oct 2024 #76
I read "Hitler's Willing Executioners" in 1998 Envirogal Oct 2024 #77
K&R Blue Owl Oct 2024 #80
For what it's worth many of the questions we ask moniss Oct 2024 #82
Thank you for your reply. thucythucy Oct 2024 #90
Thank you for the kind words and moniss Oct 2024 #98
I watched the episode. thucythucy Oct 2024 #122
Thank you for the book moniss Oct 2024 #123
Remember, ForgedCrank Oct 2024 #86
Before Trump I would have agreed with you. thucythucy Oct 2024 #93
Great post! Your question was answered by the psychologist, Alice Miller. Bozvotros Oct 2024 #89
To a certain extent yes but moniss Oct 2024 #100
I am reminded of this UpInArms Oct 2024 #92
Thank you for the link. thucythucy Oct 2024 #94
Thanks for that link. Bozvotros Oct 2024 #95
When he menaced Hillary Clinton at the debate UpInArms Oct 2024 #97
Thank you so much for your post Sparkly Oct 2024 #99
Sad to say, no. thucythucy Oct 2024 #102
It is a mistake to think the Germans were unique or worse than other people alarimer Oct 2024 #101
I can't help but think of . . . Richard D Oct 2024 #103
Thank you for this thoughtful piece... Trueblue Texan Oct 2024 #106
What an interesting post soandso Oct 2024 #108
Sadly, that won't happen. OldBaldy1701E Oct 2024 #110
There has been a war on education. the_sly_pig Oct 2024 #111
The U.S.A.'s legacy of slavery, brutal conquest, and genocide gave us the privileges we enjoy today. Pinback Oct 2024 #112
"Granted, we haven't come close to the sort of madness and horror and sadism of Germany 1933 to 1945." BumRushDaShow Oct 2024 #113
You're right about these horrid aspects of American history, thucythucy Oct 2024 #115
I live a few miles from "Germantown" BumRushDaShow Oct 2024 #116
This statement from your post "triggered" me. Collimator Oct 2024 #118
Dr. Seuss (Theodor Geisel) BumRushDaShow Oct 2024 #119
Thank you again for this thoughtful and informative post. thucythucy Oct 2024 #121
Well said. K & R nt Persondem Oct 2024 #114
My wife is German, and her parents grew up in the Germany of the National Socialists. DFW Oct 2024 #120
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»My parents grew up in Naz...»Reply #120