General Discussion

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)

86. Are you channeling Herman Cain?

Fri May 10, 2013, 04:04 PM

May 2013

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It didn't work for him either...

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Some of here sometimes feel Unwelcome. Even many of us who were here back..Way Back [View all] KoKo May 2013 OP

Hell, I said when Clinton was president and the Newt was in some sort of leadership.. angstlessk May 2013 #1

Lotsa Money was made...it just didn't "Trickle Dow." It seems in retrospect that what KoKo May 2013 #3

LOL "Trickle Dow." - A typo with a message. Junkdrawer May 2013 #12

It's very appropriate Phentex May 2013 #33

I bet you a million shares it was NO typo. It should say (pun intended) to be honest graham4anything May 2013 #62

Best. Typo. Ever. Occulus May 2013 #73

People who say the like economics but hate the Clintons are being disingenious. graham4anything May 2013 #27

IMO that is a load of BS. The GOP has no problem deserting a candidate who does not toe the party l Vincardog May 2013 #52

Jeb Bush is back. Why? Because the tea party serves the Bush's and the people planted by Rove graham4anything May 2013 #55

You are free to vote any way you want. nt Vincardog May 2013 #56

You are free to vote for Ralph Nader, but accept Nader threw the election on purpose graham4anything May 2013 #65

I hope you realize I have the same freedom with my vote as you do. Don't preach. I will vote for who Vincardog May 2013 #109

Excellent points, graham4anything. BlueCaliDem May 2013 #63

1+ I've actually seen Green Party people say, to the effect, "We're sitting this out until the patrice May 2013 #75

Patrice, "naivete" is absolutely the correct word choice HERVEPA May 2013 #176

Right, in the meantime (as in forever) whatchamacallit May 2013 #204

Are you channeling Herman Cain? Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #86

A few weeks ago, when one of the 20 had a yada yada petition, and Elijah Cummings refused to graham4anything May 2013 #95

That's like saying the only choices are dating someone who says they are going to fuck you, jtuck004 May 2013 #87

Crude but apt analogy Lydia Leftcoast May 2013 #174

The Clinton years were so wonderful, millions couldnt wait to vote for a Republican. rhett o rick May 2013 #126

That "with us or against us" talk is exactly what people hated about George W. Bush. mattclearing May 2013 #158

those who tell us there are only X solutions to any given problem are dogmatic political hacks LanternWaste May 2013 #275

Yes, I noticed the rightward shift in the 1990s, but Lydia Leftcoast May 2013 #173

Lots of people noticed. Lots care n2doc May 2013 #2

I think that that's what's Left, anymore. Quote from You: KoKo May 2013 #4

The DEM Party Plank is merely window dressing blkmusclmachine May 2013 #17

I'm beginning to realize olivelove May 2013 #32

Much like Ralph Nader was paid and bought by the republican party, right? graham4anything May 2013 #46

Warren 2016 (eom) MannyGoldstein May 2013 #241

I haven't been here THAT long...... socialist_n_TN May 2013 #5

Good to hear from a Newer DU'er from 2010...and what you say, from your perspective KoKo May 2013 #9

A socialist friend of mine claims that the "Recall Walker" campaign was a distraction Lydia Leftcoast May 2013 #175

Oh yeah, that is undoubtedly true IMO Lydia......... socialist_n_TN May 2013 #184

I think what you are seeing are the true believers of Obama n2doc May 2013 #30

Obama was always pretty conservative - TBF May 2013 #70

The cult of personallity and pride blinds IMO. n/t L0oniX May 2013 #78

are you referring to the swooners? Skittles May 2013 #6

"The Swooners." Le Taz Hot May 2013 #50

Maybe the key ProSense May 2013 #7

The change goes back to at least Mondale and Dukakis.... Junkdrawer May 2013 #8

I'm not so much thinking it was Mondale ...but, that you are correct about Dukakis... KoKo May 2013 #11

What I was alluding to was that back-to-back BIG loses opened the door for the DLC.... Junkdrawer May 2013 #13

bull. Mike Dukakis is one of the biggest liberals there is. graham4anything May 2013 #28

LBJ did escallate this little thing called Vietnam..... Junkdrawer May 2013 #36

Truman and Eisenhower and JFK's war. graham4anything May 2013 #37

Well...we tried "hey hey LBJ, how many kids did the war started by Ike, continued by JFK... Junkdrawer May 2013 #39

Nixon might have been the songwriter of the cheer, as he was the beneficiary graham4anything May 2013 #41

I'm thinking folks who lost HS and college buddies who were drafted and killed in 'Nam... Junkdrawer May 2013 #42

whatever.one can debate Vietnam or face political reality and accept consequencesof that protest graham4anything May 2013 #44

nice spin G_j May 2013 #53

yes,you prove my point AND Nixon led to how many more years of war with that? graham4anything May 2013 #57

Bullshit....had RFK lived he would have been president. zeemike May 2013 #115

Historical revisionism, thy name is graham4anything.... n/t Junkdrawer May 2013 #120

The unfortunate thing is that some of us remember. zeemike May 2013 #134

Ever think you'd make it to "Elder with long memory" status? Junkdrawer May 2013 #136

Nope. zeemike May 2013 #137

Hmph, I had "elder with long memory" status back in 2004, when Jiacinto Lydia Leftcoast May 2013 #177

Whoever put Dukakis in that tank should be shot. Junkdrawer May 2013 #178

That was supposed to make him look "strong on defense" Lydia Leftcoast May 2013 #181

No, HHH would have been the nominee anyhow.And he still would have lost due to fracture. graham4anything May 2013 #141

No you are wrong...I remember zeemike May 2013 #143

That's how I remember it, too Lydia Leftcoast May 2013 #179

And the Chicago convention would have had a much different tone. zeemike May 2013 #190

And just two months before, MLK, with his growing critique of the economic system Lydia Leftcoast May 2013 #194

Yep it was very convenient tor Nixon and the right wing. zeemike May 2013 #198

Yup and a multi-generational hold on Congress. TheKentuckian May 2013 #16

We won the election because, despite incipient insanity, Ross Perot started telling people Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #90

1994.... Junkdrawer May 2013 #94

The Beatles were mainstream, so were the Stones, so were the Dead. graham4anything May 2013 #142

Maybe we should have a party that exists on the fringes while republicans rule everything bluestate10 May 2013 #253

You won. Republicans vs Democrats became Troglodytes vs Republican-Lites. Junkdrawer May 2013 #254

Results matter. The alleged republican-lits have accomplished more in two decades than bluestate10 May 2013 #258

Constructive criticism of Democratic party and President Obama's policies is welcomed here. Nye Bevan May 2013 #10

It is actually ok to advocate for third party progressive candidates in some cases on DU Flying Squirrel May 2013 #25

As long as by 'constructive criticism' one means fawning acceptance of evermore rightwing policies panzerfaust May 2013 #49

+1 and once again, we need a like/recommend option for comments. n/t Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #91

Straw-fucking-man argument emulatorloo May 2013 #127

Absolutely correct! n/t defacto7 May 2013 #154

Yes, yes, yes. northoftheborder May 2013 #191

Action Half-Century Man May 2013 #14

OMG, thank you! intheflow May 2013 #15

Have my sons been talking to you too? LOL kickysnana May 2013 #20

Please consider the source. If someone who has a history of speaking out against economic injustice, AnotherMcIntosh May 2013 #18

+1000 Many here agree with what you said. RC May 2013 #29

LOL Love this graphic. nt limpyhobbler May 2013 #226

YOU stay the course, KoKo... Octafish May 2013 #19

... SidDithers May 2013 #21

Hey Sid. Looks like YOU'RE becoming too Left for this site.... Junkdrawer May 2013 #23

Isn't this META? graham4anything May 2013 #38

Some GD Hosts think it is... SidDithers May 2013 #45

trouble of course being personal opinions on political issues/cliques get in the way graham4anything May 2013 #61

After an hour, 4 out of 5 hosts voted leave. Autumn May 2013 #58

Kitty threads stay also. nt bike man May 2013 #64

Those that find this thread too difficult to deal with should trash it and not alert. rhett o rick May 2013 #197

"I FEEL like X, I FEEL like Y, I FEEL like Z" alcibiades_mystery May 2013 #22

Where does the sense of entitlement come from? treestar May 2013 #24

A Democratic Party is a party of people who represent Democratic values and principles. sabrina 1 May 2013 #31

It is a big tent, if you decide it is not big enough for you treestar May 2013 #35

I love the tactic of NOT reading a comment, then posting what is supposed to be a response sabrina 1 May 2013 #40

Agreed. period. AND I have been wondering if anyone would like to consider that Third -whatever in patrice May 2013 #81

You said "A Democratic Party." "The Democratic Party," MineralMan May 2013 #47

You are wrong. This country has two Parties, one is not A Democratic Party, it is A Corporate sabrina 1 May 2013 #84

The "Corporate Party" infiltration into Dem Party is a huge concern. KoKo May 2013 #213

Treestar is right. Your part of the party moves the goalposts. bluestate10 May 2013 #262

The leftmost members of the site issue complaint after complaint, often in overly long bluestate10 May 2013 #260

Now is the time for all democratic people to defend Hillary. This benG. stuff is about 2016 graham4anything May 2013 #26

LMAO ...yea that's what we need ...another cult of personallity. n/t L0oniX May 2013 #77

No. Never. Sorry. n/t Whisp May 2013 #96

The change... pipi_k May 2013 #34

Except, it seems Bobbie Jo May 2013 #43

Well said...nt SidDithers May 2013 #48

. . . Le Taz Hot May 2013 #54

More interesting Bobbie Jo May 2013 #66

It DOES become a drone when absolutely everything is a 4-alarm-fire - AND - we never see any patrice May 2013 #85

I'd love to write about "process stuff" Le Taz Hot May 2013 #89

Thanks! and I'm a woman. I'm also lucky to live around some other committed activists. nt patrice May 2013 #104

More people die in the USA from guns/bullets in 6 months than ALL the drones in history graham4anything May 2013 #98

Fact: USA lives in physical/POLITICAL hostage to PRIVATE ARMED, ROGUE VIGILANTE, TREASONOUS TYRANNY. patrice May 2013 #100

-1million. No they don't. It's sunny outside, enjoy the evening, back later. graham4anything May 2013 #101

The goal should be not to elect more Democrats but to elect more Democrats that uphold rhett o rick May 2013 #99

What? Bobbie Jo May 2013 #105

Since the Republicans went wacko, lots of Republican voters have switched to the rhett o rick May 2013 #107

No.... Bobbie Jo May 2013 #113

Why wouldnt you think that there are a lot more DINO's since the REpublican's went over the edge? rhett o rick May 2013 #121

Funny if you ask Elizabeth Warren she would say she backs Barack Obama 100% graham4anything May 2013 #139

Duh! Of course. They arent stupid. They are politicians. To say they werent happy with Pres Obama rhett o rick May 2013 #146

I love it! It's like a beautiful Saturday morning filled w/ liquid Sunshine & smiles aglow graham4anything May 2013 #165

Tactic #20,001: When facing defeat, start rambling Lydia Leftcoast May 2013 #183

ad hominem. graham4anything May 2013 #186

Did I mention any names? Lydia Leftcoast May 2013 #187

LBJ is rightwing to a few too. Don't know why,when he was the biggest liberal of all time. graham4anything May 2013 #188

Are you still here? Bonobo May 2013 #225

Or as many call it, word salad...... socialist_n_TN May 2013 #189

spot on bobduca May 2013 #192

+100 n/t zappaman May 2013 #108

Perfect post, Bobbie Jo. Perfect. Number23 May 2013 #119

Thanks for posting this. Bobbie Jo emulatorloo May 2013 #130

Beautifully said! (nt) LostOne4Ever May 2013 #164

Not all Democrats, just the establishment types who are too buddy-buddy with the Republicans Lydia Leftcoast May 2013 #185

What I learned on CGCS(the offshoot Kerry board) now defunct is this graham4anything May 2013 #51

BTW-58 posts here on, I forgot to say - I AM MADE TO FEEL UNWELCOME because of my graham4anything May 2013 #59

1+! . . . obviously you are an un-principled fellow, that's why. ;-) patrice May 2013 #88

I don't think there is a way to reconcile it. I vote the issues myself. For my whole voting forestpath May 2013 #60

been here and been green since 2002.... mike_c May 2013 #67

Occupy noticed, and offers tactics with which to reclaim the government back to FDR values. Fire Walk With Me May 2013 #68

But nobody "noticed" Occupy, and if they did, they came away with some serious reservations. Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #82

Americans have "serious reservations" about Congress Fumesucker May 2013 #92

So do I. But I had/have even bigger reservations about Occupy! Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #93

But why? Here's what Occupy has been doing in my town. I've shown you this before Bluenorthwest May 2013 #117

What am I doing? I pay my taxes. And no, you haven't "shown me this before". Fuck Occupy! Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #118

Your hatred of Occupy makes strange bedfellows. I bet you hate whistle-blowers too. nm rhett o rick May 2013 #124

Oh, you spoke to me? Aren't you afraid I might "bully" you? Again, Fuck Occupy!!!!! Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #125

Fine. Fuck your worthless sorry ass conservative Third Way MIC buttkissing bullshit. Zorra May 2013 #149

Oooooh! Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #152

... Zorra May 2013 #155

Mad? You wish you had that power, don't you? I've been yelled at by anonymous.... Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #223

Your should have read the instructions ... Summer Hathaway May 2013 #157

LOL! Ms. Hathaway: "Hey, Zorra! Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!" Zorra May 2013 #159

The only rabbit Summer Hathaway May 2013 #161

Gosh, the point of my post was, you use the same tired meme about labels Zorra May 2013 #162

"But I digress ..." Summer Hathaway May 2013 #163

Well, ya know, what can I say? Essential truths are eternal and immutable. nt Zorra May 2013 #193

+1 L0oniX May 2013 #201

So much for the OP's whine that it's the "left" that's getting bullied here Number23 May 2013 #218

Amazing, isn't it? Summer Hathaway May 2013 #221

Incredible post, Zorra and that your Bullet Points weren't answered but Attacked KoKo May 2013 #216

For someone purporting to crave "discussion" so much DemocratsForProgress May 2013 #228

Well said. n/t AnotherMcIntosh May 2013 #170

Got your tinfoil in a wad? Bobbie Jo May 2013 #199

That silver wad you see isn't tinfoil. Zorra May 2013 #222

LMFAO n/t L0oniX May 2013 #200

3-3 to leave this bullshit? Are you people serious?? Number23 May 2013 #215

What's the trouble? Unsuccessful in shutting down discussion? DU is for "politically liberal people" rhett o rick May 2013 #237

Or I could take your approach and run off into the night when I'm asked a question Number23 May 2013 #266

Don't sweat it, I don't. I'm just waiting for these folks to score some real world political hits, Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #256

You mean like us LGBT progressives convincing an anti-LGBT sitting US President that Zorra May 2013 #264

I know but it's almost hilarious to watch them break a sweat hauling themselves onto that cross Number23 May 2013 #267

Beware of those that would bully you into saying something that might get you PPR'd. It's a game rhett o rick May 2013 #236

Very true, thanks, rhett o rick. There are degrees of conservatism, and more conservative people Zorra May 2013 #250

Yes I agree. Those that can not win their argument try to shut down discussion rhett o rick May 2013 #259

+1 nt Zorra May 2013 #261

You cant bully me. I feel bad for you. Your hatred for Occupy aligns you with the wrong side. rhett o rick May 2013 #150

No, the wrong side was Occupy. Booing John Lewis, a civil rights legend, who was.... Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #153

Great post. Bravo for the courage to say it!In Ron Paul's world Rep.Lewis wouldn't be in Congress graham4anything May 2013 #166

It takes no courage to hate. There were millions of Occupy protestors. rhett o rick May 2013 #172

Hatred of Elijah Cummings and hatred of John Lewis and Dr. King and and...Three people I love. graham4anything May 2013 #182

Your rationalizations are apparently your key to happiness. Occupy lives on, long live Occupy. nm rhett o rick May 2013 #195

And you would have been against the pesky American Revolutionaries. Those pesky protestors. rhett o rick May 2013 #169

Can I just say that you probably have the most appropriate screenname here. Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #224

You dont like Occupy because you think they are dirty hippies just like my right-wing brother in law rhett o rick May 2013 #238

Let's try this again, and since English obviously isn't your primary language..... Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #242

Hatred is not becoming to a "politically liberal person." Those that support the 1% will eventually rhett o rick May 2013 #243

That of course is not even close to the facts. But I am glad I am here to present you with the facts sabrina 1 May 2013 #274

Another "Vast Rightwing Conspiracy"? That all you got? LINK? LINK? LINK? LINK? Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #276

You got a link?? I didn't see any, mainly because any link telling that lie would be from a right sabrina 1 May 2013 #277

It's not Rep. Lewis that I don't trust, but I think you know that. LINK? LINK? LINK? LINK? Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #278

What? No link from you? I know the story you told is not hard to find on the internet. So why no sabrina 1 May 2013 #279

That article doesn't address the "booing", but I suspect you knew that when you posted it. Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #280

The fake issue you raised has been settled with links, with Rep. Lewis' own account sabrina 1 May 2013 #281

x2 AnotherMcIntosh May 2013 #171

But why? Here's what Occupy has been doing in my town. I've shown you this before. Here's video Bluenorthwest May 2013 #230

All of Occupy? That's a rather large task. MannyGoldstein May 2013 #131

Ronald Reagan helped the 99%? graham4anything May 2013 #239

Did I say that? MannyGoldstein May 2013 #240

you said in 30 years. 2013 minus 30 years is 1983...in the heart of Reaganlandia graham4anything May 2013 #247

What an argument. If we dont like your candidate we are "empowering" the other side. That argument rhett o rick May 2013 #263

loose lips sink ships. Old slogans grandma used to say usually had basis in fact. graham4anything May 2013 #270

You pay your taxes and behave yourself and hope that the Ruling Elite will be nice to you. nm rhett o rick May 2013 #196

Wow, such open contempt for helping the poor and those in need. Fuck Free Medical care? Bluenorthwest May 2013 #229

My contempt, as you call it, isn't for the concept of Occupy, it's the participants. Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #231

Fuck Ron Paul. What a shitty and unfounded slander that is. Just because you are here spitting at Bluenorthwest May 2013 #232

Your ASSumption is that I don't care about people being helped is inaccurate, to say.... Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #234

You're very much in the minority here, so your 'giving a shit' or not about credible, honest DUers sabrina 1 May 2013 #284

Congress hasn't changed much in the last century or so.. Fumesucker May 2013 #122

But they're in power - LOL LeftInTX May 2013 #116

Not off topic - but bear with me JustAnotherGen May 2013 #69

^^^^This^^^ LuvNewcastle May 2013 #111

Stay! Anyone who selects a user name from one of Charlie Parker's most famous songs needs byeya May 2013 #71

K&R The 'Big (Democratic) Tent' felix_numinous May 2013 #72

Oh, a bunch of us noticed. blackspade May 2013 #74

Perhaps too often our attention, when we say "Democratic Party", is focused TOO high up. patrice May 2013 #76

Great post. I've stopped hoping for change "from above" BelgianMadCow May 2013 #138

I like what you are saying about being more positive in our actions, especially in what we say about patrice May 2013 #145

How? Find a relatively worthy "low-level" Democratic candidate who will collaborate with you and DO patrice May 2013 #79

Bettter yet, run for office yourself. Get your peeps, organize, DO the work and if you can make a patrice May 2013 #80

Did anyone notice? IrishAyes May 2013 #83

But you see... Bobbie Jo May 2013 #103

Well said! zappaman May 2013 #112

Well, I'm not familiar with everyone's individual situation IrishAyes May 2013 #140

Keep fighting. kentuck May 2013 #97

1+++ patrice May 2013 #102

+100 million. n/t L0oniX May 2013 #203

We are engaged in a war between the 1% and the 99%. The 1% totally owns the Republican Party. rhett o rick May 2013 #106

That would take $$Money$$ NorthCarolina May 2013 #110

Has KoKo posted anywhere else since the first few responses to this thread? Junkdrawer May 2013 #114

Yes, why do you ask? nm rhett o rick May 2013 #123

KoKo seems to me the type who would walk away without a GBCW post... Junkdrawer May 2013 #128

I'm here...but saw the post was alerted on and some DU'ers were sorry that it's still here... KoKo May 2013 #133

So...the million dollar question is: Was "Trickle Dow." a typo or a pun? Junkdrawer May 2013 #135

It was a Typo....but, it turned out kind of funny, really...so I didn't edit. KoKo May 2013 #209

As has been said: Best Typo Ever..... Junkdrawer May 2013 #214

The covert alert crew is nothing but a bunch of blog bully wannabees. They do not make DU better. L0oniX May 2013 #205

I so agree with you. "Dont want to lose KoKo." nm rhett o rick May 2013 #147

You feel unwelcome? Gee, I wonder why? You guys absolutely rule DU. Of course, nobody much gives Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #129

I catch your drift. Viva la Corporations. Long live the 1%. And you hope dearly that they will rhett o rick May 2013 #148

OMG! You swallowed an Occupy manifesto. Say hi to Jill & Rocky for me! Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #151

Tomorrow is the weekly Occupy Free Clinic in my city! Swallow that! Bluenorthwest May 2013 #233

Organizations like Remote Area Medical have been delivering free health care for.... Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #235

Agreed. Occupy is a strange beast. For example "Oct. 16-Dec. 22," 2011, ucrdem May 2013 #246

Occupy "faded away" only from the mass media Lydia Leftcoast May 2013 #249

Occupy was a tool "movement" that alienated the people they should've been trying..... Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #255

That's funny, that 'smoke dope' thing. Saw that on Right Wing forums all the time re sabrina 1 May 2013 #269

I wouldn't know, I don't visit "Right Wing Forums", I'll leave that to you, BBI, & emilyg. Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #271

Oh I can back it up. I can post from right wingers, your words almost exactly re OWS. sabrina 1 May 2013 #272

Link? And this time, make sure the links are actually related to the subject at hand. You have a.. Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #273

Are you the formerly known DU'er..."Better Believe It?" I remember a poster by that KoKo May 2013 #283

Something to be said about that which you say: KoKo May 2013 #282

Du rec. Nt xchrom May 2013 #132

Never forget! yoyossarian May 2013 #144

Incredible Graphic...and remembering what it was and how hard we fought to change it! KoKo May 2013 #210

If you feel unwelcomed by someone, don't allow them to take up space in your thoughts. mia May 2013 #156

We just keep on choogling there KoKo! denbot May 2013 #160

I have only been here for about 1/2 a month LostOne4Ever May 2013 #167

That's beautifully put. ucrdem May 2013 #168

This message was self-deleted by its author AtomicKitten May 2013 #202

I posted this because I hoped for folks to DISCUSS...and air some of the problems KoKo May 2013 #211

Been trying to think of a good reply LostOne4Ever May 2013 #248

Another fabulous post from you. You've blown the OP's "point" wide open Number23 May 2013 #220

Thank you LostOne4Ever May 2013 #245

Well the OP got what she wanted, I think. A thread full of bullshit Number23 May 2013 #268

You've been hating Obama since 2008. It was you who left the Democratic Party. MjolnirTime May 2013 #180

Stalk much? n/t L0oniX May 2013 #206

I don't know, KoKo. Jamastiene May 2013 #207

Much Thanks...for understanding why I was asking.. KoKo May 2013 #212

Here's the problem: Lobbyists comb every piece of legislation with a fine tooth comb.... Junkdrawer May 2013 #219

this goes beyond politics DonCoquixote May 2013 #208

Yup. woo me with science May 2013 #227

Dem Party moved to right because in 2010 Congress moved VASTLY right MH1 May 2013 #217

Been here since Feb 2001. SammyWinstonJack May 2013 #244

You can choose to see only your viewpoint and feel sorry for yourself. bluestate10 May 2013 #251

Nope, the takeover was bankrolled by Wall Street. woo me with science May 2013 #257

I waited a couple of days LWolf May 2013 #252

I've been here since 2001. The conflicts between the Left and the Father Knows Best wing of the Tierra_y_Libertad May 2013 #265

Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2019 #285

What were your GP6971 Oct 2019 #286