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Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
17. You seem to think I'm a closet Leaver
Sun Nov 12, 2017, 07:39 PM
Nov 2017

I'm not. I'd like to see it prevented, it's just that I don't see how it can be and how Labour could go all out "Stop Brexit" without bringing UKIP back and thus helping the Tories.

It can't serve any progressive good to put stopping Brexit first when any party putting stopping Brexit first would have to lose the next election. Labour would lose votes and seats on an explicitly "stop Brexit" platform and the Liberal Democrats are still doomed to stay low in votes and seats, and can't gain seats from any party other than Labour-they won't take any seats from the Tories for decades to come. It's impossible for a "stop Brexit" strategy to create clear blue water for any decent party in the UK or to lead to the election of a progressive government.

I'd like to see Brexit stopped...but it can't be stopped by insisting on pledges to stop it during the next election.
What is so indefensible about focusing first on getting the Tories out, and THEN pushing to stop Brexit(especially since the May government is on tenterhooks and could fall at any time)?

As to Corbyn, while I recognize why you personally have an issue with him(an issue you'd have had with any possible Labour leader going into that election, given that we can't any alternative figure would have made different choices) I won't apologize for standing with the first decent, principled human being who's led the Labour Party in decades-the first one who has cared about working people and the poor in decades(the party stopped fighting for them after 1987 when Kinnock started "modernizing" or, if we're honest, Toryizing the party), the first ever to challenge the morally indefensible alliance with the House of Saud, the first in a generation to acknowledge that there is no longer any justification for the Bomb and no civilized case for ever using it again.

Not sure why it's offensive to you that people in the rest of the world might admire someone like that, the first leader of a UK(rather than Scottish)party in decades who has actually supported a clear break with the Thatcherite consensus.

Or why it wouldn't bother you that, had Corbyn been deposed, Labour would have gone right back to Ed Miliband's policies or, indefensibly, gone to the RIGHT of those policies-even thought there are no positions to the right of Ed Miliband that can be called Labour in any recognizable universe.

You weren't going to get a better hearing for Scottish independence from Owen Smith OR from Yvette Cooper, Andy Burnham or Liz Kendall.




Until the government collapses T_i_B Nov 2017 #1
As much as I want the Tories out, I also want the DUP to face electoral punishment over this Ken Burch Nov 2017 #2
I don't think the DUP would be punished by voters for this LeftishBrit Nov 2017 #3
Well, times change, but this was from 2010: Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #4
A snap election can't come soon enough. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #5
I wouldn't credit the DUP with that much T_i_B Nov 2017 #6
I'd like to see quite a bit more clear water between the Tories and Labour Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #7
I'm for even more clear water than there is, although there's a lot more than previously. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #8
The latest poll I've seen showed Labour 3 points ahead. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #11
In theory, Labour should be much further ahead in the polls T_i_B Nov 2017 #12
I think at times recently Labour have been providing a more effective opposition. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #13
OK, somehow I hadn't see this earlier. I'll respond now. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #23
I've addressed pretty much all this at quite some length below. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #28
I thought I owed it to you to respond to this post when I saw it. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #29
You would agree that any continued anti-Corbyn efforts, including expulsions of his supporters, Ken Burch Nov 2017 #20
No. T_i_B Nov 2017 #37
To clarify, I wasn't condemning every single expulsion. Misogynists should be expelled. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #40
Wrong T_i_B Nov 2017 #41
OK...you can't seriously argue that there are people who are antiracist AND antisemitic. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #42
You really don't have experience of people in real life do you? T_i_B Nov 2017 #43
I have plenty of experence in real life. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #44
Given that you keep posting the same old theoretical bollocks T_i_B Nov 2017 #45
This message was self-deleted by its author Ken Burch Nov 2017 #49
I haven't mentioned the EU once on this thread T_i_B Nov 2017 #50
I have read the other posts...I'm sorry I misdirected that response to you. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #51
Christ, have you never ever misread something? Ken Burch Nov 2017 #53
I've met some. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #46
Oh...to clarify...by "clear blue water", I thought you meant policy differences. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #14
Do you not actually read anything anybody posts? T_i_B Nov 2017 #15
I read what he posted. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #21
In that particular post, I was plainly referring to clear water in terms of polling. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #16
You seem to think I'm a closet Leaver Ken Burch Nov 2017 #17
Bleedin' Ada. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #18
I'm only speaking for myself, and am not trying to convince you personally, Denzil. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #19
Now you REALLY are trying my patience, as if you hadn't already. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #22
OK, a reset is a good idea. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #24
It would also help if you'd stop making major edits to your posts after you've written them. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #25
Fair enough. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #26
Well, it mattered a bit more this time because you added questions to the end. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #27
When I started this thread, I never meant to get into Brexit. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #30
I didn't say that I thought a reset was a great idea. Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #31
I don't disagree with a single thing you've said there. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #32
Well, to return to my entry to this discussion, Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #33
OK. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #34
The problem is this: Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #38
Denzil, I'm not trying to persuade YOU to vote Labour. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #39
Why do you think Labour's support would plummet if it supported Remain? LeftishBrit Nov 2017 #35
I DON'T condemn Labour's support for Remain in the referendum. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #36
"I do think it's time that people stop blaming Corbyn for the Leave victory" Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #47
Look, this all started because I honestly misunderstood what Denzil meant by "clear blue water". Ken Burch Nov 2017 #48
Jeebus. This "small group of you that post in the UK group" Denzil_DC Nov 2017 #54
Wasn't meaning to lecture...I respect your views on the EU and truly wasn't challenging them. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #55
OK...I misread it. In terms of UK politics, I'm used to seeing the term "clear blue water" Ken Burch Nov 2017 #52
She'll call an election The King of Prussia Nov 2017 #9
I thought she would have done it around october syringis Nov 2017 #10
Ok. I live in England and from NI so I have opinions on both these things....... Soph0571 Nov 2017 #56
Thank you for that. there's a fair amount of things in there I didn't know. Ken Burch Nov 2017 #57
Unfortunately the community is divided and always will be Soph0571 Nov 2017 #58
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