Men's Group

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)

57. So examples that comply 100% with the definitions given upthread would fall on deaf ears?

Sat Oct 4, 2014, 07:06 PM

Oct 2014

I can see only one rationale for that. Present injustices and institutional discrimination are punitive collective punishment for perceived past sins. In other words, "yes, institutional discrimination exists, but we approve of it".

... Actually I can see two. The other rationale is that individuals within the two groups are inherently and fundamentally unequal, and society needs to intervene on the behalf of one of the parties, i.e. The Americans with Disabilities act.

Personally, I apply the same standards to the concept of gender injustice and privilege as I do to race.

Let's avoid the minefield and start in a place of broad agreement. Can you think of some anecdotes or statistics exemplary of white privilege and/or racial injustice? Crime? Homelessness? Education? Unemployment? Health? Wealth? Violence?

Let's then apply those same metrics and measures to gender and see if we can reach any conclusions.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

141 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

A number of my issues with the brand of Feminism on DU [View all] Veilex Sep 2014 OP

It is such a strange dynamic. The "Greatest" page is nearly always plastered with Doctor_J Sep 2014 #1

Post removed Post removed Sep 2014 #6

It's been decided, in an OP saying "Yeah, yeah....I know men get abused, everyone knows that!"... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Sep 2014 #2

And let's not forget... Veilex Sep 2014 #3

That is bad. Behind the Aegis Sep 2014 #4

A dubious argument to be sure. nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #9

Exactly right! Veilex Oct 2014 #41

The fact that reciprocally violent relationships are the ones most likely to produce injured women.. lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #49

I think dealing with intimate partner violence as a whole is vitally important, yes. nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #54

There have been easily 500 times more DU posts upset about spiderwoman's butt, than about ebola. Warren DeMontague Sep 2014 #5

J.Lo's butt pulled ahead of Kardashian AND Spider Woman's. Eleanors38 Sep 2014 #7

We're a shallow, superficial culture that likes to squabble over the most inane bullshit. nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #10

Oh, it doesn't surprise me a bit. I've been here long enough. Warren DeMontague Sep 2014 #12

On the one hand, I'm not going to dictate to someone else what they should consider important. nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #13

I wont either. Warren DeMontague Sep 2014 #15

Same here. There's a lot of silliness on DU, and it's not limited to any particular faction. n/t nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #16

Post removed Post removed Sep 2014 #8

I can more or less see where you're coming from, but I still think you're over-generalizing. nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #11

The thing is, when people insult and personally attack others fairly regularly Warren DeMontague Sep 2014 #14

I do think you've been treated unfairly, and misrepresented, by certain posters. I've said as much nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #17

"Some people just seem to have this need to divide the whole world into "good guys" and "bad guys" " Veilex Sep 2014 #20

There are good guys. And there are bad guys. Warren DeMontague Sep 2014 #23

"There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy..." nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #26

You're far too young to have Dave Mason stuck in your ear, sonny. Warren DeMontague Sep 2014 #30

You asked for it! radicalliberal Sep 2014 #32

Point taken. But I think you have to consider what's at stake, not just in this country but globally nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #25

"you have to consider what's at stake, not just in this country but globally" - And I do. Veilex Sep 2014 #27

"I refuse to support them to the exclusion of others social and economic issues." nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #28

"folks (not all of them male) have a tendency to be somewhat dismissive of feminist issues" Veilex Sep 2014 #29

I can't argue with that. nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #31

Well, anybody who knows who I am over on DI Warren DeMontague Sep 2014 #22

In her case... Veilex Sep 2014 #18

The world is filled with double standards, many of which do great harm to one gender or even both. nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #19

"The world is filled with double standards" - While true, that doesn't excuse it. Veilex Sep 2014 #21

I didn't say it excused it. But frankly, I have better things to worry about. nomorenomore08 Sep 2014 #24

You can add GamerGate to the list Hayabusa Sep 2014 #33

I highly doubt there are many (if any any) clean hands on this one... Veilex Sep 2014 #34

There are trolls on both sides Hayabusa Sep 2014 #35

Yet another perfect example of issues I take with the DU's brand of Feminism Veilex Oct 2014 #36

Jury results hifiguy Oct 2014 #37

Interesting. Veilex Oct 2014 #38

Quoting (and linking to) their own posts is viewed as an attack or "bashing". hifiguy Oct 2014 #44

+1 - It also dilutes and distracts from the valid push of feminism. Veilex Oct 2014 #45

Thanks for sharing hifiguy Veilex Oct 2014 #39

"Sexism CANNOT be practiced by both sexes in a patriarchy." Major Nikon Oct 2014 #40

+1 Veilex Oct 2014 #42

You see this a LOT with this particular brand of feminism. Hayabusa Oct 2014 #43

In what sense are white people, or men, systematically discriminated against? nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #47

Great question. Can we establish some definitions first? lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #48

I'm not sure anyone who makes such claims will agree to any definition Major Nikon Oct 2014 #51

Hope springs eternal. lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #53

More or less, yeah. Those definitions are a good start at least. nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #55

So examples that comply 100% with the definitions given upthread would fall on deaf ears? lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #57

Men do have a lot of legitimate problems in this society - incarceration, homelessness, etc. nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #58

So discrimination against men administered by other men is not oppression? lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #59

Of course it's still oppressive. I didn't really mean to suggest otherwise. nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #62

Historical racism is not the same thing as historical sexism Major Nikon Oct 2014 #65

So you'd call it oppressive, but not "systematically discriminated against"? lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #66

Okay, I'll grant you that point. nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #67

That's a fair point, but one that works both ways Major Nikon Oct 2014 #68

Systematic discrimination against men *by women* probably isn't possible other than in very specific nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #69

Would you concede that education is one of those "specific cases"? n/t lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #70

Like a school district where the majority of administrators are women, discriminating against male nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #73

how many "school administrators" educated you? nt lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #74

Replace "administrator" with "teacher," then. nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #75

If that's true, then the reverse is even more true Major Nikon Oct 2014 #71

If you completely ignore all of history and "tradition." n/t nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #72

I don't understand how 1950 is relevant to your assertion Major Nikon Oct 2014 #76

A hell of a lot of women *are* going along with it. That's the thing. nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #77

Which is the same thing as saying lots of women like traditional gender roles Major Nikon Oct 2014 #78

it sounds that you actually like traditional gender roles - and so, excuse the enforcement of them. bettyellen Oct 2014 #79

Assumptions are the mother of all fuckups, which also explains a lot Major Nikon Oct 2014 #80

I guess you could feel that way if you don't get around much. Traditional roles are rapidly dying bettyellen Oct 2014 #81

I get around enough not to rely on anecdotal evidence and biased perceptions Major Nikon Oct 2014 #82

Dad as primary earner is a dying breed- down half in 30 years to just 20% bettyellen Oct 2014 #83

That's a different dataset Major Nikon Oct 2014 #84

LOL, anything else you can think of to deny that women actually like working and or deserve to be as bettyellen Oct 2014 #85

Strange how you think I'm the one with the sore spot on the subject Major Nikon Oct 2014 #87

Seemed to me you had a pretty well reasoned point... Veilex Oct 2014 #88

his point is all women "deserve it" because we don't all vote progressively enough. you would have bettyellen Oct 2014 #95

My point wasn't even within a cab ride and that is NOT my quote Major Nikon Nov 2014 #99

nonsense, you repeatedly assert that if women wanted things any other way, they'd have voted for it bettyellen Nov 2014 #100

Point to the post where I wrote your quoted text Major Nikon Nov 2014 #101

Nonsense, you imply it all the time. Sorry- you cannot post making excuses for regressive bullshit bettyellen Nov 2014 #105

You cannot continue to dishonestly spread catty rumors Major Nikon Nov 2014 #106

Seems to be a pretty good validation of your OP Major Nikon Nov 2014 #102

Indeed. Veilex Nov 2014 #103

I'm so sorry you can't handle the conversation without having emotional issues- bettyellen Oct 2014 #89

This is why I use mansplaining exactly how it is meant = as a conversation ENDER Tuesday Afternoon Oct 2014 #91

Yeah, that was classic gaslighting.... and I am sure they would argue that gaslighting is something bettyellen Oct 2014 #92

... lol ... I can see it now ... Tuesday Afternoon Oct 2014 #93

It's fucking hilarious that anyone would claim that women do not want equal pay or opportunity bettyellen Oct 2014 #94

patience of Job. You have it. eom. Tuesday Afternoon Oct 2014 #96

When asked, more women than men respond that time off is more important than money lumberjack_jeff Nov 2014 #97

empowerment is nothing without equal opportunity and pay- neither of which exists bettyellen Nov 2014 #98

fundamentally nonsense. lumberjack_jeff Nov 2014 #104

+1 Veilex Feb 2015 #141

For race, yes. Gender, not so much. Major Nikon Oct 2014 #52

I see the distinction you're trying to make, but I don't think raw numbers tell the whole story. nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #56

You see it everywhere from school board, to city council to the presidency. lumberjack_jeff Oct 2014 #60

Actually it means exactly that Major Nikon Oct 2014 #61

"I don't really think women's interests will be better served with more Michelle Bachmanns and less nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #63

How can you be so sure? Major Nikon Oct 2014 #64

To be fair, I think she was referring to "sexism" in a systematic - not individual - sense. nomorenomore08 Oct 2014 #46

I'm not so sure Major Nikon Oct 2014 #50

DU has become a cesspool for fake feminists. Darkhawk32 Oct 2014 #86

This message was self-deleted by its author radicalliberal Nov 2014 #107

I wouldn't go to that extent. Veilex Nov 2014 #110

Post removed Post removed Oct 2014 #90

I dared vdogg Nov 2014 #108

You can't. lumberjack_jeff Nov 2014 #109

And that silencing of dissent is another of the issues I take... Veilex Nov 2014 #111

Message auto-removed Name removed Dec 2014 #128

The comic book pinup shirt fiasco. ProudToBeBlueInRhody Nov 2014 #112

Post removed Post removed Nov 2014 #113

So, I posted a video, and the response I got... well, I should say it was surprising, but it wasn't Veilex Nov 2014 #114

".......in the men's rights group here" ProudToBeBlueInRhody Nov 2014 #115

I suspect the vast majority of that alerter's alerts do get ignored Major Nikon Nov 2014 #116

This one was alerted as well FBaggins Nov 2014 #117

Thanks for the heads up! Veilex Nov 2014 #119

alerted... again ProdigalJunkMail Nov 2014 #118

Thanks for posting this. Veilex Nov 2014 #120

i definitely choose amused ProdigalJunkMail Nov 2014 #121

Agreed Veilex Nov 2014 #122

"post stalking?" Never happens in the Gungeon. Eleanors38 Nov 2014 #123

This would certainly be my first experience with it. Veilex Nov 2014 #124

Get a star and make full use of the jury blacklist. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2014 #126

"it seems like you're doing okay" - Indeed Veilex Dec 2014 #127

Atticus Finch is now the bad guy Major Nikon Dec 2014 #125

If you are a man and are raped, deep down you really liked it Major Nikon Jan 2015 #129

So agresiously wrong its ridiculous... Veilex Jan 2015 #130

The actions of some of the gender warriors betray any sort of movement towards equality Major Nikon Jan 2015 #131

Indeed. Veilex Jan 2015 #132

Here's another one... Veilex Jan 2015 #133

It is obvious that most of the traffic on this forum is from people looking for something to alert. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2015 #134

"people looking for something to alert" - Indeed Veilex Jan 2015 #135

The irony is that this is a protected group, yet the standard of conduct is higher. lumberjack_jeff Jan 2015 #138

"But whatever you do, don't call it bigotry." Veilex Jan 2015 #139

... Major Nikon Jan 2015 #137

And again... Veilex Jan 2015 #136

... Major Nikon Feb 2015 #140