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Men's Group
In reply to the discussion: The Medea Complex and the Parental Alienation Syndrome [View all]redqueen
(115,177 posts)35. The extraordinary fight over "parental alienation syndrome" and what it means for divorce cases.
http://www.slate.com/id/2294831/
...
The most worrisome aspect of the legal fight over parental alienation syndrome may be that it divides supporters and opponents along strict gender lines: As a rule, this is classed as a women's sickness alleged by men. Fathers' rights groups are not solely to blame for the fact that an entire "disease" is predicated on the notion that women are lying liars; the inventor of the syndrome can take responsibility for that. But no hypothesis so rooted in gender bias should be credited by medical science. And because evidence of PAS is so frequently offered to counter maternal allegations of abuse, the experts testifying about PAS can be aiding and abetting a system that takes children from abused mothers and hands them right back to abusive fathers. Once again, this doesn't mean that some parents don't alienate their children in a divorce. It means that PAS is now used to discredit women whenever they claim abuse.
Much of the blame for the biased history of PAS can be laid at the feet of its originator, Dr. Richard Gardner, who developed the theory—from his own practice and without clinical studies—of mothers who foster hatred for their children's father as a ''powerful weapon'' to grab custody for themselves. This wasn't a theory born of objective empirical observation. It was a campaign against mothers rooted in the idea that they regularly lie and then "brainwash" their children into lying about paternal abuse. Because of Gardner's gender-freighted conclusions, it was probably inevitable that men, in the form of fathers' rights groups, would seize upon the battle to legitimize PAS. One of its most famous spokesmen became Alec Baldwin, who wrote practically a whole book on the subject in 2008, arguing paradoxically that corrupt judges and the courts have too much power over custody disputes and that by recognizing PAS, the courts could make the whole child-custody process more fair. (Here is Baldwin describing PAS as something women mainly do to men.)
...
Gardner's long-term scientific credibility was not helped by some of his kookier pronouncements about incest ("intrafamilial pedophilia … is widespread and ... is probably an ancient tradition"
, or pedophilia ("It is of interest that of all the ancient peoples it may very well be that the Jews were the only ones who were punitive toward pedophiles."
. But he still managed to become the David Barton of child-custody law, having written more than 250 books and articles, cassettes, and videotapes (often self-published) and testified as an expert in approximately 400 cases in more than 25 states.
...
That's what makes the current debate over inserting PAS into the DSM-5, which has been going on for years, something of a red herring. It almost doesn't matter. Nobody really believes it's a scientific theory anymore, and Gardner has been all but discredited where it counts. That's what worries Meier most of all: "Courts and experts have stopped talking about parental alienation syndrome and started talking about parental alienation," she says. "By dropping the word 'syndrome' they purport to just be describing a behavior; and that's harder to challenge as inadmissible, even though Parental Alienation is used virtually identically to PAS, with virtually identical quasi-scientific claims and prescriptions." Back when it was a matter of science, opponents of PAS could advance arguments about admissibility and scientific legitimacy. Now it's a conclusory legal term that can barely be refuted.
...
...
The most worrisome aspect of the legal fight over parental alienation syndrome may be that it divides supporters and opponents along strict gender lines: As a rule, this is classed as a women's sickness alleged by men. Fathers' rights groups are not solely to blame for the fact that an entire "disease" is predicated on the notion that women are lying liars; the inventor of the syndrome can take responsibility for that. But no hypothesis so rooted in gender bias should be credited by medical science. And because evidence of PAS is so frequently offered to counter maternal allegations of abuse, the experts testifying about PAS can be aiding and abetting a system that takes children from abused mothers and hands them right back to abusive fathers. Once again, this doesn't mean that some parents don't alienate their children in a divorce. It means that PAS is now used to discredit women whenever they claim abuse.
Much of the blame for the biased history of PAS can be laid at the feet of its originator, Dr. Richard Gardner, who developed the theory—from his own practice and without clinical studies—of mothers who foster hatred for their children's father as a ''powerful weapon'' to grab custody for themselves. This wasn't a theory born of objective empirical observation. It was a campaign against mothers rooted in the idea that they regularly lie and then "brainwash" their children into lying about paternal abuse. Because of Gardner's gender-freighted conclusions, it was probably inevitable that men, in the form of fathers' rights groups, would seize upon the battle to legitimize PAS. One of its most famous spokesmen became Alec Baldwin, who wrote practically a whole book on the subject in 2008, arguing paradoxically that corrupt judges and the courts have too much power over custody disputes and that by recognizing PAS, the courts could make the whole child-custody process more fair. (Here is Baldwin describing PAS as something women mainly do to men.)
...
Gardner's long-term scientific credibility was not helped by some of his kookier pronouncements about incest ("intrafamilial pedophilia … is widespread and ... is probably an ancient tradition"
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...
That's what makes the current debate over inserting PAS into the DSM-5, which has been going on for years, something of a red herring. It almost doesn't matter. Nobody really believes it's a scientific theory anymore, and Gardner has been all but discredited where it counts. That's what worries Meier most of all: "Courts and experts have stopped talking about parental alienation syndrome and started talking about parental alienation," she says. "By dropping the word 'syndrome' they purport to just be describing a behavior; and that's harder to challenge as inadmissible, even though Parental Alienation is used virtually identically to PAS, with virtually identical quasi-scientific claims and prescriptions." Back when it was a matter of science, opponents of PAS could advance arguments about admissibility and scientific legitimacy. Now it's a conclusory legal term that can barely be refuted.
...
But this is just more liberal / progressive nonsense, I'm sure. Easily ignored or dismissed. Right, guys?
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Considering that courts almost automatically give custody to the mother...
TreasonousBastard
Nov 2012
#4
Assuming both men and women are equally inclined to this sort of petty vengeance
4th law of robotics
Nov 2012
#3
Personally, I've found a lot of equal opportunity in the people I know in this spot
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
Nov 2012
#5
Mea culpa, I thought Bonobo had replied to me. I did pay attention to that name,
redqueen
Nov 2012
#20
And this, too, is certainly not evidence that most high conflict divorces involve domestic violence.
redqueen
Nov 2012
#26
No, it isn't. It is impossible to reply to posts made by people on your ignore list.
redqueen
Nov 2012
#49
Coming into this group and demanding people listen to you while simultaenously complaining that they
Warren DeMontague
Nov 2012
#50
It was written by a lawyer on behalf of a battered women advocacy organization
Major Nikon
Nov 2012
#22
It is primarily mothers who have custody and fathers who are alienated.
lumberjack_jeff
Nov 2012
#38
Though it is obvious to me that women engage in this more, it isn't vital to this discussion.
Bonobo
Nov 2012
#64
Where are your scientific, peer-reviewed studies proving that mothers do it more often?
redqueen
Nov 2012
#69
A member of a forum with over 20 banned members calls another forum
4th law of robotics
Nov 2012
#72
Also: scientific, peer reviewed studies regarding the patriarchy, objectification
4th law of robotics
Nov 2012
#76
The concept of PAS (at least Gardner's version of it) is not well accepted in the medical community
Major Nikon
Nov 2012
#10
It is real. It really does happen, and there are enough first-hand accounts to demonstrate it.
lumberjack_jeff
Nov 2012
#15
I think the concept is a real thing, I'm just not convinced of Gardner's version of it
Major Nikon
Nov 2012
#17
The extraordinary fight over "parental alienation syndrome" and what it means for divorce cases.
redqueen
Nov 2012
#35
"But no hypothesis so rooted in gender bias should be credited by medical science."
lumberjack_jeff
Nov 2012
#39
Yes, the MRA spin is extremely popular all over the net. Most people don't bother to argue.
redqueen
Nov 2012
#43
So when the rate of incidence doesn't support your claims, you change the subject
Major Nikon
Nov 2012
#54
Its a shame when the adults cant put their personal shit aside for the sake of the kids.
Warren DeMontague
Nov 2012
#66