Environment & Energy

NNadir

(34,661 posts)

32. One can pretend that electricity ISN'T generated overwhelmingly by fossil fuels at a huge thermodynamic penalty...

Sun Sep 15, 2024, 10:39 AM

Sep 15

...but one would simply be relying on self deception.

A study of the carbon intensity of electric cars vs hybrid cars as a function of the grid on which they operate has been published.

Cleaning up while Changing Gears: The Role of Battery Design, Fossil Fuel Power Plants, and Vehicle Policy for Reducing Emissions in the Transition to Electric Vehicles Matthew Bruchon, Zihao Lance Chen, and Jeremy Michalek Environmental Science & Technology 2024 58 (8), 3787-3799

I covered the paper in this space: A paper addressing the idea that electric cars are "green."

There is no such thing as a "green" car - despite much delusional bull that the car CULTure can be sustainable - but that said:

A graphic from that paper:

The caption:

Figure 1. Electricity generation mix by region in 2020. Regions other than PJM are ordered from the largest to smallest total regional generation. Generator fuel types are ordered (bottom to top) from the largest to smallest global generation. Generally, PJM has similar properties to most other regions of the world: wind, solar, and nuclear power produce a minority of generation with low marginal cost, typically generating as much energy as possible regardless of the variations in load, while dispatchable fossil fuel plants (primarily coal and natural gas) adjust the generation in response to changes in load. Hydroelectric generation, a small source in PJM, can adjust the timing of generation within constraints (such as lake level limits) (Data from refs (1) and (2)).

You see the red regions in the graph. This is low carbon and reliable electricity, not dependent on the weather at a time the weather has been vastly destabilized by the unrestricted brown and black regions promoted by antinukes. And let's be clear again, the "bait and switch" game is what is promoted by people claiming that hydrogen is "green" and batteries are "green." What they're selling is fossil fuels.

I am not innocent, as I am a participant in the car CULTure. This said, I do drive a hybrid car, a CAMRY, my second, as the first was destroyed in an accident when less than a year old. I routinely get, with judicious use of the cruise control, better than 60 mpg without using thermodynamically degraded electricity.

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A Stock Toyota Prius Just Drove Across America Averaging 93 MPG, Setting A Guinness World Record [View all] Caribbeans Sep 13 OP

I'm looking into buying a Toyota hybrid iemanja Sep 13 #1

Plug-in Hybrids - about 8 to 12 hours for a fully charge using ordinary 120 V circuit progree Sep 14 #11

It seems complicated iemanja Sep 14 #14

I test drove 2 Rav 4 hybrids today and I fell in love. 1WorldHope Sep 13 #2

I've been thinking about the Corolla Cross hybrid because it's smaller iemanja Sep 14 #15

I messed up my front end on my impreza subaru the first day i drove it. 1WorldHope Sep 14 #17

The first day iemanja Sep 14 #18

I was, but I never bothered fixing it because I kept doing it. 1WorldHope Sep 14 #25

Conventional hybrids get ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of their energy from gasoline (or diesel), so anyone progree Sep 13 #3

Those are the facts, yes. But the goal right now is for everyone reduce their carbon foot print. PortTack Sep 14 #5

I switched to EVs over a decade ago. NEVER going back. tinrobot Sep 14 #9

Happy that you like your EV. Here in the MW, cities like Chicago EV charging during cold weather can be an absolute PortTack Sep 14 #13

Ice cold Norway just passed 90% of new car sales as EVs. tinrobot Sep 14 #16

The average Norwegian drives 7600 miles per year NickB79 Sep 14 #20

Not really. 14K miles per year is only about 40 miles per day. tinrobot Sep 14 #27

This OP was about a stock Prius and a guy who got amazing mileage from it....NOT about EVs and your PortTack Sep 15 #29

I responded to the post immediately above me. tinrobot Sep 15 #39

Your chargers are burning natural gas and coal, but of course you didn't respond to that! PortTack Sep 16 #41

Don't forget, your toaster and TV set are also burning gas and coal. tinrobot Sep 16 #42

Are they no better than regular gasoline engines? iemanja Sep 14 #19

After I thought about it, but haven't verified: on Plug-in Hybrids -- progree Sep 14 #21

I'm talking about the difference between a combustible engine and a non-plug in hybrid iemanja Sep 14 #22

Oh, a conventional hybrid is definitely better than an ICE car as far as fuel efficiency and emissions progree Sep 14 #23

Okay, thanks. nt iemanja Sep 14 #24

Your welcome. Thanks for the questions. Good luck with your purchase 😊 /nt progree Sep 14 #26

I found something that's pretty good explanation of a conventional (non-plug-in) hybrid progree Sep 15 #28

What kind of hybrid is this? iemanja Sep 15 #34

I don't know - I'm not having any luck with your link progree Sep 15 #35

Is this better iemanja Sep 15 #36

Definitely a conventional (not plug-in) hybrid progree Sep 15 #37

Right, I knew that iemanja Sep 15 #38

One can pretend that electricity ISN'T generated overwhelmingly by fossil fuels at a huge thermodynamic penalty... NNadir Sep 15 #32

I'm well aware that the U.S. grid, on average, is 60% fossil fuel. What I'm saying is that progree Sep 15 #33

It is technically straight forward, although popularly not recognized or embraced to make ICE's nearly carbon neutral. NNadir Sep 15 #40

God, please don't get me stuck behind a hypermiler. NBachers Sep 14 #4

I've had two Prius...they are really great cars and I definitely have reduced my carbon foot print PortTack Sep 14 #6

I'm on my 2nd Prius chowmama Sep 14 #7

It's great that he did it, but the last part is basically a Toyota ad that slams EVs tinrobot Sep 14 #8

I've got a European spec Yaris Cross hybrid. shotten99 Sep 14 #10

It's not just the mileage that counts. My 12+ y/o Prius has had to have only Wonder Why Sep 14 #12

I'm saving my 12 yr old Prius for my daughter NickB79 Sep 15 #30

Mine goes to grandson in 2 years when he turns 16. Wonder Why Sep 15 #31