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Igel

(36,087 posts)
7. Lots of things go into that.
Sun Oct 16, 2016, 12:11 PM
Oct 2016

In this case, it's just two groups fighting against each other, coupled with a similarly antagonistic mindset.

Secularly, it's "we need a place to live, have a right to a place, and somebody's trying to take it away from us." Imagine if all the Germans ousted from Koenigsberg and from what's now western Poland demanded to be allowed to return to their land, if the Germans elsewhere had insisted they be put in camps and not given citizenship or allowed to integrate. It wouldn't be pretty.

Religiously, it's "we're promised this land and you're interlopers." Perfectly aligned with secular reasons we have religious reasons. Palestine is waqf, given to Muslims by Allah. But there's a strong undercurrent that the children of Israel was promised that land, and that Judaism is right in God's sight. Even the synagogue I visit from time to time is ardently pro-Israel as the ingathering of the Jews spoken of in the Tanakh but backs off finally saying that it's the fulfillment of prophecy--it's a messianic synagogue and the idea of non-messianic Jews being that final restoration of a righteous Israel is a high hurdle. For them, the Jews are blessed of God--just don't say "Shoah" in their presence or point out that if you want to be religiously oriented then you say God chucked them out once to Babylon for being wayward, and another time under the Romans ... for the righteousness that they say they should be observing. I have yet to explore Jewish views of theodicy at a national level, and it's not real high on my bucket list.

A lot of "racism" is what you see among all-white kids in high school or in mixed-race schools. One group acts differently and thinks itself superior to others. One group insists on its standards for behavior and thinks it's hateful to be asked to compromise, and even delights in both being different and making others see how superior they are. The result of enforced non-mingling and non-accommodation is not a good one, often leading to "so, you think you're better than us?" And it's worse when the group involved responds, "Yup, we are better than you." Doesn't matter if it's whites and blacks, Christians and Muslims, Jews and Russians or Arabs, or the dullard football jocks versus the wimpy kids in AP English.

In a value-system in which honor is valued above truth--at least public honor above public truth--the UNESCO resolution is what you get. It's important to claim the land and win the argument, esp. when satisfying your honor also gets you stuff; if you have to betray the truth, as long as nobody that you value says you've betrayed the truth the truth is just what people agree on. Destroy the facts, and they never existed if you don't say they did. In a society in which there's a fair amount of poverty and in which being impoverished is a dishonor, esp. when it's your lessers that are wealthier, jealousy plays as big a role as simple greed--you can be greedy and want stuff, you can be covetous and what what they have, or you can be jealous and be almost as happy with another's ruin as you'd be with your own success.

I put the three kinds of hatred into different buckets. The first is national and the conflicts are often very hard to resolve; frequently it requires one group give up its aspirations. Germans removed from Poland may sometimes harbor dreams of reclaiming their patrimony but they've assimilated and moved on for the most part.

The second is religious and cannot be resolved. Secular Zionists may have thought an alternative homeland would have suited Jews, and they'd have been right; "next year in Jerusalem" was okay for many hundreds of years ... But that train has left the station, and "next year in Namibia" would produce a lot of grief. Having given Jews a homeland in Palestine, to remove them would be nearly impossible. Redefining waqf is what's needed at this point, and finding an accommodation for a largish Muslim minority, as well as finding some way of disposing of the territories of Ephraim and Manesseh (and was it Reuben?) from Jewish national aspirations. Then, perhaps, the religious claims could be resolved.

The third problem, viewing those who view you as inferior as inferior, won't go away. Separation and rituals to govern interactions is the usual way history has of dealing with this, when the more common kludges of ethnic cleansing and forced assimilation weren't employed. Given today's Zeitgeist, I don't see "rituals" happening except in some formal, treaty-level way that rules government-to-government to interactions.

It is pretty scary oberliner Oct 2016 #1
Not unexpected though.. King_David Oct 2016 #2
Lots of things go into that. Igel Oct 2016 #7
Israel? The resolution has nothing to do with Israel. Little Tich Oct 2016 #3
The Western Wall is not under Israeli control? oberliner Oct 2016 #4
LOL King_David Oct 2016 #5
Let's look at a map to see where the border is... Little Tich Oct 2016 #10
you realize that sabbat hunter Oct 2016 #30
If you think that holding a Bar mitzvah at the Wall was your religious right Little Tich Oct 2016 #31
I think that sabbat hunter Oct 2016 #32
Agreed. n/t shira Oct 2016 #34
What if there are Palestinians who don't want to be Israelis? aranthus Oct 2016 #35
I think that East Jerusalemites should have their applications made with the same ease as for every Little Tich Oct 2016 #37
I agree about automatically granting a citizenship application.. aranthus Oct 2016 #38
It's good that we agree. n/t Little Tich Oct 2016 #41
It's the Jews' holiest site on earth, so of course it's our religious right. shira Oct 2016 #33
The Western Wall isn't the only holy place in Jerusalem. Little Tich Oct 2016 #36
You're complaining about Palestinian access to holy sites when...... shira Oct 2016 #39
No Palestinian is above suspicion, and therefore always a security risk? Little Tich Oct 2016 #40
Denying any security threat whatsoever against Jews is vile. shira Oct 2016 #42
Please show us sabbat hunter Oct 2016 #6
The annexation of Eastern Jerusalem was was determined to be "null and void" by the United Nations Little Tich Oct 2016 #8
So what? aranthus Oct 2016 #9
Yes, why indeed and on DU to boot... n/t Little Tich Oct 2016 #11
Clinton said more or less the same thing King_David Oct 2016 #12
Perhaps you should ask her if Jerusalem is the capital of israel? Little Tich Oct 2016 #13
Pivot King_David Oct 2016 #18
So no answer. aranthus Oct 2016 #16
You shouldn't care leftynyc Oct 2016 #23
Saudi Arabia on the Human Rights Council awoke_in_2003 Oct 2016 #26
Well said.(nt) leftynyc Oct 2016 #27
Always look for a solution Little Tich Israeli Oct 2016 #15
Your friend Tich sees no way 2 states could work due to settlements. shira Oct 2016 #17
But I completely agree with him shira ...... Israeli Oct 2016 #21
So why advocate for 2 states when you think it's impossible now? shira Oct 2016 #22
I truly dont believe in a one state solution shira .... Israeli Oct 2016 #24
So what are you advocating if not 2 states? n/t shira Oct 2016 #25
Gush Shalom has always advocated for two states shira ... Israeli Oct 2016 #28
So you believe, unlike Tich, there can be 2 states. I agree with you too... shira Oct 2016 #29
With regard to ..... Israeli Oct 2016 #43
Anything that provides equal rights is good enough for me. Little Tich Oct 2016 #20
With regard to ..... Israeli Oct 2016 #44
The current status quo can't stay forever - peace will eventually break out, one way or the other. Little Tich Oct 2016 #45
Good for hillary leftynyc Oct 2016 #14
+1 King_David Oct 2016 #19
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