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William Seger

(11,040 posts)
113. "Damage" was not the reason for WTC7's collapse
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 02:45 AM
Feb 2012

It was unrestrained thermal expansion causing girders to become unseated from columns, leading to buckling failure of one critical column, leading to progressive collapse of the entire structure.

> Look at the Oklahoma City Building after suffering all the damage it did. Why didn't if fall straight into its footprint? At least a little?

Um, perhaps because it was a completely different type of building under completely different circumstances? But in fact, the Murray Building did suffer "at least a little" progressive collapse: The initial blast only took out a few exterior columns, but a progressive (disproportionate) collapse brought down about half the building. Bad example of the point you were trying to make.

> Never before or since have steel framed buildings fallen like that; total self-annihilation at near free fall speed.

Well, surely you don't mean to suggest that if something never happened before, then it can't happen? Let me suggest that understanding why WTC7 collapsed requires understanding how it was put together and what was going on inside that building for seven hours. Since no similarly constructed building has suffered a similar unfought fire, the uniqueness of its collapse is completely unremarkable.

> The debate over the Zapruder film frames is obvious to me: the earlier frame is showing JFK at an instance after being shot in the back and the latter is showing an instance after he was shot in the head.

If by "back" you mean "back of the head," then a right-frontal second shot less than 1/18th second after the shot from the rear is one completely unsubstantiated speculation that's been advanced, but it was invented for the sole purpose of continuing to assert there was a grassy knoll shooter even though the Zapruder film shows JFK getting hit from behind. But (1) there is absolutely no physical evidence of a shot from the grassy knoll or of any second hit to the head; (2) the "back and to the left motion" doesn't require any hit from the right front; and (3) as I've been trying to explain to zeemike, without much success, a bullet hit can't really explain the acceleration seen in that motion, anyway, so it's a particularly bad hypothesis.

> The point on shutter speed and bullet speed is spot on: the camera Zapruder was using could not capture every instance of the bullets trajectory, period.

Only if "spot on" means "completely irrelevant," but I've never approved of that usage. Nothing being argued here has anything whatsoever to do with capturing "every instance of the bullets trajectory."

> However, despite this psuedo-proof, the majority of witnesses did not run towards the Book Depository; they ran towards the grassy knoll.

Well, not the "majority of witnesses," but in fact, those "ear witnesses" were one of the main reasons I myself, in the late 60s, believed there was probably a grassy knoll shooter. However, in 1969 when I went to Army basic training, one day they marched us out to sit in some bleachers set in a large pit so they could fire shots over our heads to teach us how to tell where a rifle shot came from. Why? It turns out, it's not as simple as you might think, and it fact, most people (including myself) would get it completely wrong. The complication is that bullets fired by high-powered rifles travel faster than sound, so if you're down range from one that passes nearby, the first sound that you hear is actually the "crack" of the bullet's sonic shock wave. It sounds very much like the crack of a bullwhip, because it's really the same thing. Here's the thing: That sound always appears to be coming from a direction that's actually perpendicular to the bullet's path! What they taught us to listen for was the dull "thump" sound that came later, which was the actual muzzle sound.

Since then (well, and since learning how weak the other conspiracy evidence really was), I haven't been too much impressed with some people's guesses about where the shots came from. There is simply no credible evidence for a grassy knoll shooter.

> Also, there is overwhelming evidence of several more bullet holes all over Daley Plaza and the limo as well as enough lead left in Connolly to make up almost another entire bullet sans the magic bullet that was found at Parkland Hospital.

If you see "overwhelming evidence" for any of that, then it seems to me you are easily overwhelmed. But re: the bullet found at Parkland Hospital, aren't you absolutely astounded that the "real perps" were so totally in control of the situation that they knew Connally would end up with an entrance wound with no bullet in it, so they planned to plant a bullet on the stretcher? Wow, those guys were good!

I don't have an answer to your question, but one has to look at the evidence teddy51 Dec 2011 #1
The cracking of the Enigma Code was not leaked until the 1970s after it was offiically announced. JDPriestly Dec 2011 #2
And that allso goes for the capture of a German sub with the enignama machien zeemike Dec 2011 #28
If you were asked to participate in either operation, what would you do? cpwm17 Dec 2011 #29
Well that is a fair question and a fair point. zeemike Dec 2011 #30
There's no way that there's the expertise to pull it off cpwm17 Dec 2011 #31
Well then how does the mob and other organized crime do it? zeemike Dec 2011 #32
Since mob informers are the key to most police investigations hack89 Feb 2012 #39
But that is because their are police and law enforcement. zeemike Feb 2012 #40
You are naive if you believe that. zeemike Feb 2012 #41
you would have to be a sociopath BobbyBoring Feb 2012 #37
Well I would know only what I needed to know to do my part of the plan zeemike Feb 2012 #46
You've been watching too many movies Confusious Feb 2012 #43
And you perhaps not enough history. zeemike Feb 2012 #45
Nope, not me Confusious Feb 2012 #47
Well I never saw it in the movies zeemike Feb 2012 #49
do I detect some contempt from you about people that you consider CTers? Confusious Feb 2012 #50
Do you know what disinformation is? zeemike Feb 2012 #53
So you're spreading disinformation? Confusious Feb 2012 #55
Well it is astounding to me that people can buy that . zeemike Feb 2012 #56
"that is just basic science" William Seger Feb 2012 #57
The first frame is before the impact.of the head shot. zeemike Feb 2012 #59
Nope William Seger Feb 2012 #61
No that is the frame where the bullet struck zeemike Feb 2012 #64
Utter nonsense William Seger Feb 2012 #68
Well look this is not nonsense zeemike Feb 2012 #69
If the Zapruder film is REALLY what made you believe that Oswald didn't shoot JFK, William Seger Feb 2012 #71
You mean to tell me zeemike Feb 2012 #72
in what sense do you "see" that? OnTheOtherHand Feb 2012 #73
Because if the bullet did not strike in 312 zeemike Feb 2012 #74
didn't you just say yourself... OnTheOtherHand Feb 2012 #75
Well let me try again to explain. zeemike Feb 2012 #76
OK, let's think about this OnTheOtherHand Feb 2012 #77
Some good points zeemike Feb 2012 #78
meh OnTheOtherHand Feb 2012 #79
Well how about we just declare you the winner zeemike Feb 2012 #80
This is NOT a "small point" William Seger Feb 2012 #81
Now this is how you control the discussion... zeemike Feb 2012 #84
yo, if you're so free from fear, get the heck out of fetal position OnTheOtherHand Feb 2012 #82
We are discussing it on your terms. zeemike Feb 2012 #83
jeepers OnTheOtherHand Feb 2012 #85
Again we are back to math. zeemike Feb 2012 #86
so you don't think the head changes position from 312 to 313? OnTheOtherHand Feb 2012 #87
Well let me try to be clear. zeemike Feb 2012 #89
well, no OnTheOtherHand Feb 2012 #91
Really? zeemike Feb 2012 #95
"And you cannot explain that backward movement with any thing that makes sense" William Seger Feb 2012 #97
Well you can't prove a negative zeemike Feb 2012 #100
Another myth. Actually, it IS sometimes possible to prove a negative William Seger Feb 2012 #105
This is getting kinda bizarre William Seger Feb 2012 #93
OK...so the ejected material is several feet away zeemike Feb 2012 #96
In other words, you've got nothing William Seger Feb 2012 #98
Now with the ridicule. zeemike Feb 2012 #101
Your theory is all assumption and no fact. zappaman Feb 2012 #102
The facts presented is what we see in the film. zeemike Feb 2012 #107
Here's what's ridiculous about it, by the way William Seger Feb 2012 #108
No that is not what I said. zeemike Feb 2012 #109
"The shutter on frame 313 was open for 1/30 of a second" zappaman Feb 2012 #110
Frames per second is different from shutter speed. zeemike Feb 2012 #115
The camera's manual says a nominal 16 fps and 1/35th sec exposure William Seger Feb 2012 #119
Well thanks for looking that up zeemike Feb 2012 #120
WTF? William Seger Feb 2012 #112
No sir the shutter speed is all that is relevant. zeemike Feb 2012 #116
I seriously doubt that a timeline is going to unconfuse you, but let's try: William Seger Feb 2012 #118
I get what you are claiming. zeemike Feb 2012 #121
So you have no explanation for the forward head snap William Seger Feb 2012 #122
Can't let it end when you say inertia is imaginary physics zeemike Feb 2012 #123
No, it's your claimed "DELAY due to inertia" that's imaginary William Seger Feb 2012 #124
Well I can't compete with that zeemike Feb 2012 #125
Hopeless William Seger Feb 2012 #126
You are right it is hopeless zeemike Feb 2012 #127
This may be the most ridiculous thing I've read about the JFK assassination in some time. zappaman Feb 2012 #99
there is only one reason I am still here zeemike Feb 2012 #103
"this is like a case study in how debunking CTs work" William Seger Feb 2012 #106
it's kind of hilarious-- if a "conspiracy theorist" had presented this as proof he'd be laughed at. NoMoreWarNow Apr 2012 #137
It's motion blur caused by camera motion William Seger Apr 2012 #139
that may be, but your data is still inconclusive NoMoreWarNow Apr 2012 #141
Neither William Seger Apr 2012 #142
Frame 313 is not an instant, it is a duration. And during that duration the head may have travelled eomer Feb 2012 #88
OK, where does that get us? OnTheOtherHand Feb 2012 #90
Back to square one. eomer Feb 2012 #92
See gif in post #93. There was no forward motion before frame 312 William Seger Feb 2012 #94
"square one" was trash talk about "the power of fear" OnTheOtherHand Feb 2012 #104
Well, you've just proved my point Confusious Feb 2012 #58
I want to listen and have been listening. zeemike Feb 2012 #60
I've seen IN PLANE SITE zappaman Feb 2012 #62
Well a 757 is consistent with what I saw zeemike Feb 2012 #66
Really Confusious Feb 2012 #63
You present questions that are easy to answer zeemike Feb 2012 #65
Well if you make up stuff Confusious Feb 2012 #67
Well I don't have all the answers...and no one could zeemike Feb 2012 #70
Two other things Confusious Feb 2012 #51
Have you seen the original movie The Day The Earth Stood Still? zeemike Feb 2012 #54
A brief visit to one secure in their findings..... AlwaysQuestion Apr 2012 #132
Well thanks for that vote of confidence. zeemike Apr 2012 #133
Jeez, what a pantload William Seger Apr 2012 #134
Do you believe? AlwaysQuestion Apr 2012 #136
Ohmygawd, do you actually READ what I write? William Seger Apr 2012 #138
Then why the cover up? tblue Dec 2011 #3
Plenty of reasons for a coverup without positing guilt in the 9/11 attack Bolo Boffin Dec 2011 #6
I remember people telling me.... lib2DaBone Dec 2011 #4
We have no idea what happened to that drone hack89 Dec 2011 #19
Regardless of what happened to that drone, there's no connection to 9-11 cpwm17 Dec 2011 #20
You seem to ignore terrafirma Dec 2011 #27
You need to read "JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters," Peace Patriot Dec 2011 #5
That's the problem with EVERY conspiracy theory RZM Dec 2011 #7
But if the conspirators know that someone will eventually talk.... Richard Charnin Dec 2011 #9
Exactly RZM Dec 2011 #10
Not quite. You miss the point. Richard Charnin Dec 2011 #11
Of course there have been conspiracies RZM Dec 2011 #12
Compelling evidence? You want it; you got it. Richard Charnin Dec 2011 #13
Wow. Ed Asner and some random blogger RZM Dec 2011 #14
15 unnatural deaths within a year! Bolo Boffin Dec 2011 #15
Nope zappaman Dec 2011 #16
You mean like the 9/11 Commission conspiracy to not talk about Building 7 in their Report? Richard Charnin Dec 2011 #8
The 9/11 Commission Report was not meant to be an exhaustive examination of all aspects Bolo Boffin Dec 2011 #17
theories Tunkamerica Dec 2011 #18
You're conflating and collapsing all conspiracy theories into a single monolith (npi), coalition_unwilling Dec 2011 #21
Truthers rarely correct other truthers when they promote total nonsense cpwm17 Dec 2011 #23
I grant you a lot of it is nonsense, but there are some troubling coalition_unwilling Dec 2011 #24
The put options on United and American were explained. Bolo Boffin Dec 2011 #25
Thank you for that. At some point, I am going to have to make time coalition_unwilling Dec 2011 #26
Oh, please. You believe THAT? Remember Me Dec 2011 #33
Thanks for your opinion. Bolo Boffin Dec 2011 #34
Yeah, you'd think Remember Me Dec 2011 #35
One major airline (Ansett Australia) was folding at the time KDLarsen Dec 2011 #36
"So it is fair to criticize almost all truthers for any truther nonsense." ocpagu Apr 2012 #140
It's called COMPARTMENTALIZATION, dude! Uranus Needs Men Dec 2011 #22
I want to know who is behind the Unwarranted Apostrophe Conspiracy. Codeine Feb 2012 #38
Hasn't stopped the UK libodem Feb 2012 #42
It had to be hundreds but couldn't have been hundreds? Why couldn't it have been a few or a dozen? eomer Feb 2012 #44
What would the scenario be in which only a few know? Ohio Joe Feb 2012 #48
That would be the scenario in which only a few were part of the consipiracy. eomer Feb 2012 #52
... which really just demonstrates the pointlessness of idle speculation. William Seger Feb 2012 #114
Leads that the "investigation" didn't follow; additional parties surely were involved. eomer Feb 2012 #117
WT7 didn't have enough damage to fall like that in my opinion deadinsider Feb 2012 #111
"Damage" was not the reason for WTC7's collapse William Seger Feb 2012 #113
Heck, we might as well argue here too right? cbrer Feb 2012 #128
Nope William Seger Feb 2012 #129
That actually cbrer Feb 2012 #130
NIST simulation deadinsider May 2012 #144
Finally getting back 2 u... deadinsider May 2012 #145
Oh, well, nothing else going on around here, so... William Seger Jun 2012 #146
The steel portions of the Madrid tower collapsed due to fire. hack89 Apr 2012 #135
People who haven't mastered the difference between plural and possessive... JackRiddler Apr 2012 #131
911? dukie Apr 2012 #143
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