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arguille

(60 posts)
94. reply to #93
Sat Apr 6, 2013, 01:49 PM
Apr 2013

"it isn't possible to conclusively determine when JFK and Connally were hit by looking at the Zapruder film, which simply invalidates any argument that begins with guesses -- specifically, the guess that the hits were one second apart..."

But the notion that Kennedy was struck somewhere around frame Z207 (or more accurately "exhibits a reaction to a severe external stimulus&quot , is buttressed by the eyewitness accounts of persons in the motorcade and bystanders. Those observations have been aligned with all the photographic evidence - not just the Z film - to establish consistencies. For example, two of Kennedy's closest aides, plus a motorcycle officer riding next to them, all described essentially the same thing - JFK slumps and turns to his left - happening at essentially the same time - right as the sound of a shot rang out. Before the limousine disappears behind the sign, Kennedy has stopped waving and is turning to his left. These reactions can be compared to other photographs, which have been examined closely enough to establish a corresponding Zapruder frame. One photographer snapped his shutter immediately on hearing the shot, where we see Mrs Kennedy looking to her left. The weight of the eyewitness testimony - this is from many persons - is that Mrs Kennedy turned to her husband in reaction to his being hit by a shot. So there is a photo taken immediately as the shot rang out (and you can actually see the photographer in the Zapruder film taking the picture) where Mrs Kennedy is turned to her left and then very shortly afterward, as can be seen on the Zapruder film as the limousine appears from behind the sign, she is facing her husband. This is what you are dismissing as speculative guesswork.

"As the WC report said, the SBT is not at all critical to their conclusions, yet conspiracists like to pretend that it's absolutely vital to the single-shooter theory."

But it is absolutely vital to the lone gunman theory and the Warren Commission knew it, no matter what they said.And from here, after lecturing about speculative guesswork, you propose an "assumption" that might be a "possibility" based on a shot which allegedly ripped through Kennedy's neck even though he was actually hit in the back. Once again, the idea that a bullet passed through Kennedy to strike Connally is the epitome of a speculative guess. There is absolutely no evidence to support this notion and in fact, the physical evidence says that this single bullet speculation cannot be true (CE399 would have been smashed striking Connally's wrist - it is not. Kennedy was hit in the back, as autopsy materials and holes in his clothing show. The Parkland doctors - who, unlike the Bethesda doctors were experienced in gunshot wounds, said the throat wound was one of entrance. etc). Most telling of all, the one thing that would have been incontrovertible about this wound - tracking the path of the bullet at the autopsy - was not done even though it was a procedural and even legal requirement, and it was not done on the orders of senior military officers who were controlling the autopsy.

" If Adams was off by as little as 15 seconds in her estimate of when she and Styles headed downstairs, then there is no mystery about why she didn't see Oswald..."

Nonsense. Oswald, according to the official story, was necessarily moving quite quickly down creaky wooden stairs (the timing recreations, which needed to get Oswald to the 2nd floor lunchroom in time to be seen by Baker, proved very tricky for the Commission, and required shortcuts in things such as hiding the rifle). Neither Adams or Styles saw OR HEARD anyone, which means that no one was rushing down the stairs either ahead or behind them.

"And far from corroborating the claimed timing, Garner's statement appears to refute it: She remained on the 4th floor and says that right after she saw Adams and Styles go down, she saw Baker and Truly going up. That implies that Baker and Truly had already encountered Oswald on the 2nd floor! You (and the video) seem to have omitted the mental contortions necessary to interpret that as a corroboration of the claim that Adams should have seen Oswald, rather than corroboration of the notion that he had already gone down before Adams."

By your account then, Baker and Truly would have passed Adams and Styles on the staircase - but there is nothing to support this.
None of these persons ever remembered or described such an encounter. Are you suggesting that it is somehow a "mental contortion" to fail to consider an event which no witness has described as even ever happening? Would it be cruel to add that there is not a single witness who could place Oswald on the sixth floor after 12 noon (actually even earlier), and that the entire notion that he was up there, let alone was firing a gun, is entirely speculative guesswork? In fact, it is worse than speculative guesswork because there are witnesses who can establish that no one was dashing down the staircase in the aftermath of the shooting, and there is a witness placing Oswald on the main floor shortly before the shooting.

The Warren Commission's conclusions were a bluff. The evidence collected and published in the Report does not support their conclusions. The idea that there is "credible evidence" supporting the official story is a mirage. Somehow you have allowed yourself to not only be taken in by this bluff, but presume to haughtily pontificate and demean persons who have been carefully rolling back this curtain in the interests of historical truth.

"you're trying to pretend that you've got valid and sound arguments"

That Kennedy was struck by a bullet before Connally is supported by photographic evidence (film and stills) and by accounts from multiple eyewitnesses - all of which is mutually supporting. Instead of absorbing this information, you deflect it by offering speculation ("it's possible that the first assumption...was correct...guesses (note: mutually supported photographic and eyewitness accounts)... do not refute that possibility&quot . That Oswald was never on the sixth floor is proven by two witnesses who were on the exact staircase he was allegedly frantically scampering down and who neither saw or heard him. Like the Warren Commission, you are in denial over that fact.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Thanks for posting, I watched the first 9 videos from the links in your earlier posts. eomer Feb 2013 #1
I sort of see it, too... MrMickeysMom Feb 2013 #4
Introduction: Woman heard shot from grassy knoll William Seger Feb 2013 #2
Snark? MrMickeysMom Feb 2013 #3
"That's all I get from you is snark?" William Seger Feb 2013 #5
No, I read it... MrMickeysMom Feb 2013 #6
Uh-huh, "answers" and "honest discussion" and "dialog" William Seger Feb 2013 #11
Episode Two: John Armstrong speculates there were "two Oswalds" William Seger Feb 2013 #12
Episode Three: Bill Simpich speculates that Oswald was part of "false defector" program William Seger Feb 2013 #13
Episode Four: Joan Mellen speculates that Oswald was a CIA/FBI plant William Seger Feb 2013 #15
Episode Five: John Armstrong again, speculating about "two Oswalds" again William Seger Feb 2013 #16
No response from the OP yet? zappaman Mar 2013 #18
On posting the videos as they come out each week, and on your being blocked for it... eomer Feb 2013 #7
Appreciated, eomer... MrMickeysMom Feb 2013 #8
I followed the discussion and I thank you for having, by far, the more reasonable approach. NYC_SKP Feb 2013 #14
Thanks for posting and sorry for any grief you got from others. NYC_SKP Feb 2013 #9
Twas nothing... MrMickeysMom Feb 2013 #10
Will the OP be answering Seger's criticisms of the videos any time soon? zappaman Mar 2013 #17
It would appear that the poll speaks for who's more interested in the videos... MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #19
So the answer is NO zappaman Mar 2013 #20
The answer is... MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #21
!!! zappaman Mar 2013 #22
... MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #23
I'm sorry you can't speak for yourself. zappaman Mar 2013 #24
They sure are... MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #25
Seger's criticisms arguille Mar 2013 #26
I a interested in the way you addressed "c" MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #27
One at a time: a) eyewitness reports of shot(s) from grassy knoll area William Seger Mar 2013 #28
reply to #28 arguille Mar 2013 #33
"Sorry. That does not add up." William Seger Mar 2013 #38
reply to #38 arguille Mar 2013 #43
Neither you nor Fiester have refuted what I'm saying about Zapruder William Seger Mar 2013 #46
BTW, here's a "painted over" Zapruder frame William Seger Mar 2013 #51
reply to #51 arguille Mar 2013 #52
Baloney. I DID respond to your three issues. William Seger Mar 2013 #58
reply to #58 arguille Mar 2013 #60
Timeout William Seger Mar 2013 #64
A vacation is what you needed at this point, Billy MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #66
I'm back William Seger Apr 2013 #73
reply to #73 arguille Apr 2013 #74
I keep asking for one GOOD reason William Seger Apr 2013 #79
reply to #79 arguille Apr 2013 #82
Baloney William Seger Apr 2013 #85
reply to #85 arguille Apr 2013 #92
Sliced thin and piled high, it's still baloney William Seger Apr 2013 #93
reply to #93 arguille Apr 2013 #94
On and on William Seger Apr 2013 #95
reply to #95 arguille Apr 2013 #97
Stairway to delusion William Seger Apr 2013 #99
reply to #99 arguille Apr 2013 #100
Oh, I don't really mind arguing with a brick wall William Seger Apr 2013 #108
reply to #108 arguille Apr 2013 #110
Credibility issue William Seger Apr 2013 #115
reply to #115 arguille Apr 2013 #117
Two words: Bull. Shit. William Seger Apr 2013 #118
reply to #118 arguille Apr 2013 #119
But I DID read it, "arguille" William Seger Apr 2013 #121
reply to #121 arguille Apr 2013 #124
If you're just going to keep repeating yourself William Seger Apr 2013 #127
reply to #127 arguille Apr 2013 #129
"What's that about likely or unlikely?" William Seger Apr 2013 #133
reply to #133 arguille Apr 2013 #135
By the way, this... William Seger Apr 2013 #131
reply to #131 arguille Apr 2013 #136
Well, that's the problem MrMickeysMom Apr 2013 #84
Clicking on your posts, hoping that maybe this time there will be something William Seger Apr 2013 #86
Point by point William Seger Apr 2013 #69
reply to post #69 arguille Apr 2013 #76
In other words, speculation and spin are all you've got William Seger Apr 2013 #80
"...but the single-bullet theory remains the best explanation of the facts." MrMickeysMom Apr 2013 #87
I'm sure arguille appreciates the cheerleading, but... William Seger Apr 2013 #88
You wish a fight over what you should wish to seek... MrMickeysMom Apr 2013 #89
I've been begging for any credible FACTS that refute the WC conclusions William Seger Apr 2013 #90
Reply to #80 arguille Apr 2013 #91
No offense, of course, but so what? William Seger Apr 2013 #96
reply to #96 arguille Apr 2013 #98
Good grief William Seger Apr 2013 #112
reply to #112 arguille Apr 2013 #113
More baloney? No thanks William Seger Apr 2013 #114
reply to #114 arguille Apr 2013 #116
Here we go 'round the mulberry bush William Seger Apr 2013 #122
reply to #122 arguille Apr 2013 #130
Thanks for the video William Seger Apr 2013 #132
reply to #132 arguille Apr 2013 #137
Pointless repetition William Seger Apr 2013 #140
reply to #140 arguille Apr 2013 #142
"What fact?" William Seger Apr 2013 #144
reply to #144 arguille Apr 2013 #147
Yeaaaaaah, THAT'S the ticket William Seger Apr 2013 #148
reply to #148 arguille Apr 2013 #149
But it IS bullshit, isn't it William Seger Apr 2013 #151
reply to #151 arguille Apr 2013 #153
LMAO William Seger Apr 2013 #156
reply to #156 arguille Apr 2013 #158
In other words, you have absolutely no sound evidence or logical reason William Seger Apr 2013 #160
reply to #160 arguille Apr 2013 #161
'Round the barn again William Seger Apr 2013 #162
reply to #162 arguille Apr 2013 #165
How about this: William Seger Apr 2013 #167
b) Fletcher Prouty worked at the Pentagon William Seger Mar 2013 #29
reply to #29 arguille Mar 2013 #34
And again, my point was... William Seger Mar 2013 #40
reply to #40 arguille Mar 2013 #44
Yes, they lie a lot William Seger Mar 2013 #48
reply to #48 arguille Mar 2013 #53
Well, if you think you can prove THAT, then... William Seger Mar 2013 #59
reply to #59 arguille Mar 2013 #61
Which just goes to show... William Seger Apr 2013 #70
reply to #70 arguille Apr 2013 #77
c) Seger dismisses information on Oswald's history and background as unsubstantial William Seger Mar 2013 #30
reply to #30 arguille Mar 2013 #35
"But there was a false defector program." William Seger Mar 2013 #39
reply to #39 arguille Mar 2013 #45
"illegal operations can be understood as including false defectors" William Seger Mar 2013 #50
reply to #50 arguille Mar 2013 #54
Baloney. Here's a link to the minutes of that meeting William Seger Mar 2013 #57
reply to #57 arguille Mar 2013 #62
"*IF* that were true and it ever came out and could be established" William Seger Apr 2013 #71
reply to #71 arguille Apr 2013 #75
Actually, what I'm claiming is... William Seger Apr 2013 #83
also to #71 arguille Apr 2013 #78
The minutes of the first Commission meeting, and I provided the link (n/t) William Seger Apr 2013 #81
d) Mexico City William Seger Mar 2013 #31
reply to #31 arguille Mar 2013 #36
"the provable fact that Oswald was framed" William Seger Mar 2013 #41
e) spooky one-note music. William Seger Mar 2013 #32
reply to #32 arguille Mar 2013 #37
Sez you William Seger Mar 2013 #42
reply to #42 arguille Mar 2013 #47
But I'm giving you every opportunity to change my mind William Seger Mar 2013 #49
reply to #49 arguille Mar 2013 #55
Baloney. It's not a "rhetorical device" to demand FACT-based DEDUCTIVE reasoning William Seger Mar 2013 #56
reply to #56 arguille Mar 2013 #63
Well now... MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #68
Prove any one of them, then William Seger Apr 2013 #72
Made it to 1:38 in first video Riftaxe Mar 2013 #65
Wow!.... MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #67
In the intro video, they say his head moved back when he was shot, ZombieHorde Apr 2013 #101
Shhhhh! zappaman Apr 2013 #102
I have only watched the first first video and half of the second, so they might address that point. ZombieHorde Apr 2013 #103
You should check this out as well zappaman Apr 2013 #104
That does look like his head moved forward to me. ZombieHorde Apr 2013 #105
reply to ZombieHorde arguille Apr 2013 #106
"It remains a point of contention five decades later." zappaman Apr 2013 #107
It does remain a point of contention... MrMickeysMom Apr 2013 #109
Well, I suppose the earth being round remains a point of contention since some believe it is flat... zappaman Apr 2013 #111
head movement and blood spatter arguille Apr 2013 #120
In other words, Fiester has NO CLUE the 2.5" forward head-snap even happened William Seger Apr 2013 #123
reply to #123 arguille Apr 2013 #125
"move minutely into the force" is NOT a 2.5" head-snap William Seger Apr 2013 #126
reply to #126 arguille Apr 2013 #128
"swell or move minutely into the force" is NOT a 2.5" forward head-snap William Seger Apr 2013 #134
reply to #134 arguille Apr 2013 #138
Yep, that's exactly the same thing Fiester was talking about William Seger Apr 2013 #139
reply to #139 arguille Apr 2013 #141
What's refuted is your bizarre interpretation of "contemporary ballistic science" William Seger Apr 2013 #143
reply to #143 arguille Apr 2013 #150
You just keep digging your hole deeper and deeper William Seger Apr 2013 #152
Reply to #152 arguille Apr 2013 #154
I really don't understand why you keep responding if that's the best you can do William Seger Apr 2013 #155
reply to #155 arguille Apr 2013 #157
... William Seger Apr 2013 #159
"Ballistics & Forensic Experts on the JFK Head Shot" William Seger Apr 2013 #163
reply to #163 arguille Apr 2013 #164
No, this is the ticket: William Seger Apr 2013 #166
BTW, Re: Fiester as an "expert" William Seger Apr 2013 #168
"Seger refutes contemporary ballistic science" with another video William Seger Apr 2013 #146
And by the way.... William Seger Apr 2013 #145
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