Creative Speculation

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)

89. Actually, the remains of the metal itself demonstrates it adequately for me.

Fri Oct 25, 2013, 04:56 PM

Oct 2013

your interpretation may vary.

It's like creationism. The creationists claim irreducible complexity, and 'this must have been created because it isn't possible to happen naturally', and not being able to re-create the initiation of the universe in the lab, the best I have is work from people like Hawking showing that not only CAN it happen under certain circumstances, but that it MUST follow from certain circumstances.

I accept that and move on. It provides an excellent template for this issue. I do not feel compelled to build a multi-story kiln full of crap that would be present in a building manufactured in that era, and subject it to various forces present on that day. If the components are available, and to my satisfaction they are, then I am done, and need spend no further energy on it.

A failed experiment by one guy doesn't break that conclusion for me. Ockham's razor tells me his experiment was probably badly formed.

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9/11 Debunked: "Molten Metal" Explained [View all] Logical Jan 2012 OP

Thank you for posting this video zappaman Jan 2012 #1

This is a video debunking the idea that the molten metal flow is thermite. Bolo Boffin Jan 2012 #2

Ha! zappaman Jan 2012 #3

Do you know what to debunk something means....? jesters Jan 2012 #4

Perhaps you should watch it. n/t Bolo Boffin Jan 2012 #6

This message was self-deleted by its author Logical Jan 2012 #5

He misunderstood the nature of the OP video. Bolo Boffin Jan 2012 #7

speculation and sophistry does not a debunking make! wildbilln864 Jan 2012 #8

Bush said this about explosives Rosa Luxemburg Jul 2013 #55

Not hardly! wildbilln864 Jan 2012 #9

What's a channel rail, wildbill864? n/t Bolo Boffin Jan 2012 #10

well you can google it Bolo... wildbilln864 Jan 2012 #11

Just wondering if you knew what a channel rail was. n/t Bolo Boffin Jan 2012 #12

so you don't ? wildbilln864 Jan 2012 #13

I do know what a channel rail is. Bolo Boffin Jan 2012 #14

Post removed Post removed Jun 2013 #15

A video to debunk your debunking video gyroscope Jun 2013 #16

More gyroscope Jun 2013 #17

No more facts PLEASE! Politicalboi Jul 2013 #20

Um, perfectly reasonable that some windows would be blown out and not others. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #21

"air handling systems of the two towers had interconnections in the basement..." gyroscope Jul 2013 #22

Oh, I'm laughing all right. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #23

That's right Sherlock. gyroscope Jul 2013 #24

Which doesn't explain, again, the collapse top-down. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #25

How do you explain the ground level explosions? gyroscope Jul 2013 #26

They certainly weren't demolition charges. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #27

You are speculating gyroscope Jul 2013 #30

Well, certainly the con-edison substation had problems. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #31

Hairsplitting gyroscope Jul 2013 #33

It most certainly did not. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #34

First you tell me gyroscope Jul 2013 #35

You don't even understand what I am saying. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #36

This message was self-deleted by its author gyroscope Jul 2013 #37

Nanotechnology gyroscope Jul 2013 #38

And as I mentioned earlier, no thermite or thermate is visible burning in the building during AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #40

Are you an expert on nanothermite? gyroscope Jul 2013 #41

'I don't understand how it works, waaa waaah, so neither do you!' AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #42

Where do you think the molten metal came from, genius? gyroscope Jul 2013 #45

Fires and the friction of the collapse. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #47

That's a good one gyroscope Jul 2013 #49

Actually, good sized demo projects often have water sprayed on the rubble for some time. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #50

Also, keep in mind... AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #32

There was a jet fuel explosion in an elevator shaft William Seger Jul 2013 #28

Hey!!! greytdemocrat Jul 2013 #18

No only you. gyroscope Jul 2013 #19

Supeman has X-ray vision William Seger Jul 2013 #29

That's a nice fairy tale gyroscope Jul 2013 #39

So, your claim of "molten steel" is based on... William Seger Jul 2013 #43

Exactly. 'Glowing' is miles and miles short of 'molten'. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #44

What do you think caused the glowing hot steel beams? gyroscope Jul 2013 #46

The pools of aluminium didn't heat the girders. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #48

pools of aluminum!? wildbilln864 Jul 2013 #56

What kind of metal do you think they were talking about when the claims of molten metal were made? AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #57

no one offered evidence wildbilln864 Jul 2013 #58

Most of the eyewitnesses on film say 'molten metal', not 'molten steel'. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #59

This message was self-deleted by its author wildbilln864 Jul 2013 #60

There's no need to test melted girders Ace Acme Oct 2013 #67

See post #68. AZCat Oct 2013 #69

OK, I read it again. It was as I said. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #144

Iron burns in some situations. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #70

Right, the wrought iron fence across the street burst into flame last week. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #73

That's not even good sarcasm. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #74

Demonstrate the sulfur dioxide production Ace Acme Oct 2013 #75

Basic chemsitry. Gypsum board is CaSO₄·2H₂O AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #76

He ran multiple tests. Diesel fuel was one of them. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #78

It doesn't last long in that application. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #79

Refineries deal with Hydrogen Sulfide a lot Ace Acme Oct 2013 #80

By itself, no, but liberate the sulfide, and you have a problem. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #82

Even if you take the water out Ace Acme Oct 2013 #83

IN A REDUCING ATMOSPHERE. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #84

Neither you nor NIST has demonstrated the reducing atmosphere you claim Ace Acme Oct 2013 #87

Actually, the remains of the metal itself demonstrates it adequately for me. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #89

You don't see the circular reasoning there, I guess. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #93

Because it doesn't appear a credible objection. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #95

You have not demonstrated that SO2 is expected in the rubble Ace Acme Oct 2013 #99

You have yet to demonstrate molten steel for them to explain at all. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #101

9 PhDs and a FDNY Captain testified to melted steel or iron. nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #103

All of whom could have gathered evidence of that. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #105

There are photos, there are samples. nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #107

Not of slagged steel there aren't. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #108

So now you're down to the last sliver, walking the plank. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #111

Yes, because you are using 'melted' deliberatedly when the correct word is eroded or corroded. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #113

The FEMA investigation said it was "intergranular melting" Ace Acme Oct 2013 #115

Astaneh's photos do not show melting. They show erosion. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #117

You didn't even look at the photo Ace Acme Oct 2013 #119

That beam is not slagged. It's eroded. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #121

"slagged" is a phony specification. It is partially "vaporized" nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #122

Tell me, what does a POOL of molten metal that is 'vaporized' look like? AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #124

I never said there were pools of vaporized steel. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #126

What does a stalagmite of vaporized steel look like? AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #128

You deliberately conflate 2 separate accounts to create false contradictions nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #130

No, I am not. I am using your own citation against you. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #132

Glanz's article and Astaneh's report support cutting Ace Acme Oct 2013 #134

No, they don't. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #137

You didn't even look at the pictures, did you? Ace Acme Oct 2013 #140

Yes, and the picture you just cited is erosion. RUST. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #141

It's vaporized. That's what the NYT said. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #142

They are wrong, or using imprecise language. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #152

I didn't say there were any pools of molten steel. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #153

Pools of molten steel was a topic of this thread fork, if you scroll up, before you barged in. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #155

The thread forked at #18, which was about mini-nukes Ace Acme Oct 2013 #157

I have looked at that photo you linked, plus the ones I provided, and about 10 more that neither of AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #159

The absence of slag is meaningless. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #161

You wouldn't get a stalagmite without slag. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #163

A witnesses's testimony is considered evidence in the fact-based community. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #164

Jones has been caught lying, and that is not an assay. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #165

Presence of melted steel is not an extraordinary claim Ace Acme Oct 2013 #168

You have yet to link a photo of slagged steel. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #169

Your demand for slag is a red herring. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #170

Slagged steel is the intermediary step between steel beams and the alleged stalagmite AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #171

The evidence of a steel stalagmite is the NYT article written by a PhD astrophysicist Ace Acme Oct 2013 #174

He says metal in one place, steel in the next, in that article. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #177

And you can't get past the fact that he saw metal and steel. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #178

I think he's mistaken. Or he made an assumption. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #181

You assume he's mistaken, because the fact is inconvenient to you. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #184

It's an incredible claim without any supporting evidence. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #186

There's nothing incredible about it. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #188

It is not evidenced by photos, and not apparently by samples either. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #190

It's evidenced by Dr. Astaneh's photos and by samples in the FEMA report Ace Acme Oct 2013 #192

You keep trying to play that card. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #194

Melted steel trumps "no molten steel" any day. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #196

So, the ingot doesn't exist then? AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #197

A picture of it exists. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #199

Astaneh's photos do not show material that could have produced an alleged stalagmite. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #200

You keep repeating that. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #201

No, the formerly molten ingot is not an assertion of fact. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #207

It's assertion of fact. The assertion might be wrong. You're very confused. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #208

Not my job. It's Jones's job to establish that it is real, and bring it to sources that can AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #211

His claims are consistent with claims of others. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #214

He hasn't provided what he purports to be the only phyiscal pieces of evidence AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #216

So contact Jones and prove that he CAN'T produce the sample of the melted iron. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #220

He's already a fool because he WON'T do it. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #221

How do you know he won't until you ask? You invent your facts. nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #223

In 12 years he hasn't done it. I don't NEED to call him. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #226

You need to call him if you're going to claim he can't or won't. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #229

I refer you to post 161 in which you claim slag running down channel rails. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #198

Captain Philip Ruvolo, FDNY, claims molten steel running down the channel rails. nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #203

Which of course, humans can detect the chemical composition of with the naked eye. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #205

Practical men know what melted steel looks like. nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #209

Generally untrue, with a couple narrow exceptions; tells that are not present AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #212

Practical men have been around welding and casting operations and know Ace Acme Oct 2013 #215

Cluebat: I work with molten metals myself. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #218

You are an anonymous internet poster. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #222

I didn't bring up Seger. You did. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #225

I didn't say they know what it is made of. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #228

I've pulled "glowing hot steel" from a campfire William Seger Jul 2013 #51

I've heated steel in a campfire and been unable to make it glow. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #64

Maybe you need to try again William Seger Oct 2013 #65

Dr. Astaneh has pictures. He told PBS "I saw melting of girders". Ace Acme Oct 2013 #66

I don't think your last argument is correct. AZCat Oct 2013 #68

It's been several years since I read that part, which is buried deep in the third volume Ace Acme Oct 2013 #77

Interesting response. AZCat Oct 2013 #136

I read it again. It was as I said. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #145

Nah, you can totally make mild steel glow in a plain campfire. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #72

Oh, I'm familiar enough with the issues to know William Seger Oct 2013 #81

Dr. Astaneh's opinions about truthers are irrelevant to the fact that he saw melting of girders Ace Acme Oct 2013 #85

Where are the photos? AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #86

You don't know? How can you be so ignorant? Ace Acme Oct 2013 #88

That is not an answer. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #90

edits provide links nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #91

You are conflating and hedging. Do not play games with me. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #92

Site access was restricted. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #94

Those photos aren't 'not good enough' they are not of the same thing at all. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #96

Those photos are of partially melted steel girders and partially evaporated steel girders. nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #97

That's not what melting looks like, for steel. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #98

Dr. Asteneh said it was melted. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #100

Ok, where's the stalagmite? AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #102

Dr. Glanz is a PhD astrophysicist and a journalist Ace Acme Oct 2013 #104

I won't assume he lied. I will assume he is wrong. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #106

Why should you assume he is wrong? Is that science? Ace Acme Oct 2013 #110

Yes I do. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #112

He thought it was steel because he thought it was steel. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #114

Strawman. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #116

What's extraordinary about Dr. Glanz's claim, corroborated by 8 other PhDs Ace Acme Oct 2013 #118

Showing erosion, not slagging. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #120

"Slagging" is a phony spec. Astaneh's photos show melting and vaporization. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #123

Again, strawman. I am not 'closing off' investigation. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #125

Look at the "Material Recovery Report" by Professor Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, fig 10 photo nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #127

I have, several times. That is erosion. There is no slag. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #129

"No slag" does not equal "no melting" nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #131

It does, if you intend to show dripping beams, pools, stalagmites, etc. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #133

I didn't say anything about dripping beams or pools nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #135

Then why did you jump into this thread fork which was previously about items like AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #138

And yet you obviously cannot produce any pictures of "melted girders" William Seger Oct 2013 #139

If you haven't seen the pictures years ago you must have been hiding under a rock. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #143

Nope, I haven't seen any pictures of "melted girders" William Seger Oct 2013 #146

Pictures Ace Acme Oct 2013 #147

Yep, I've seen those girder pics William Seger Oct 2013 #151

The "eroded" steel was "vaporized" and subject to "intergranular melting" Ace Acme Oct 2013 #154

"intergranular melting" that happened at 1000 degrees C William Seger Oct 2013 #156

Intergranular melting is melting Ace Acme Oct 2013 #158

You never asserted any conspiracy? William Seger Oct 2013 #160

Conspiracy theories appeal mostly to those who want simple-minded answers. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #162

Who do ad hoc "just so stories" appeal to? (n/t) William Seger Oct 2013 #166

Ad hoc stories like incompetence, turf wars, confusion, lack of vision Ace Acme Oct 2013 #167

"Ad hoc in argumentation" William Seger Oct 2013 #204

Logical failure. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #173

As usual, you're making no sense. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #176

Then you're begging the question that steel melted. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #180

"corrosion" = "evaporated" = "melted". You're playing word games. nt Ace Acme Nov 2013 #247

No, I'm looking for evidence that supports the OTHER claims you referenced. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #248

You are making excuses to deny the evidence, not looking for it. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #249

There is an alleged sample, unproven 12 YEARS after, zero photos and a couple allegations. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #250

The "alleged" samples are pictured in FEMA Appendix C and have been seen on BBC TV. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #251

'melted' in the manner you showed doesn't produce running channels full of molten steel or stalgmite AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #252

1. How do you know? 2. Why does it matter? Ace Acme Nov 2013 #253

I asked for evidence of steel that could produce the alleged stalagmite for which AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #254

I provided the evidence. Eyewitness testimony from Captain Philip Ruvolo, FDNY, Ace Acme Nov 2013 #255

I think they are mistaken. I didn't say it was inadmissible. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #256

NIST doesn't prove their theories. Their core steel samples do not show heating Ace Acme Nov 2013 #257

Do you not see the contradiction in your own statement there? AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #258

Your demands for proof are disingenuous when you do not demand proof from NIST. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #259

Either Astaneh is talking about something he didn't take pictures of AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #260

So you're back to arguing that doing laundry is a conspiracy theory Ace Acme Nov 2013 #261

No, much simpler than that. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #262

Eyewitness testimony is evidence. Your efforts to deny that would get you laughed out of court. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #263

RE: "ALL of the 9/11 investigations cost less than one Predator drone." Make7 Oct 2013 #148

My mistake. One Reaper drone costs $30 million. Or a Chinook helicopter. Sue me. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #149

I spend my time arguing with creationists. You're welcome. If not, their bullshit would be in textbo AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #172

And they've taught you everything you know about maintaining your illusions, Ace Acme Oct 2013 #175

You have provided zero facts, and nothing but unsubstantiated allegations. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #179

I have provided facts. I said 5 PhDs attested to melted steel. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #182

5 PHD's that offered no evidence, and no means by which they identified the allegedly AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #183

Your claim is contradictory to reality. Dr. Astaneh has photos. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #185

No he doesn't. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #187

Dr. Astaneh has photos of melted steel. A stalgmite is melted steel. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #189

Astaneh has zero photos of molten steel. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #191

Astaneh has photos of melted steel. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #193

Yes, there is a need for it. Because without it, you have no evidence beyond Glanz's claim AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #195

How many hundreds of hours have you spent posting about 9/11? Ace Acme Oct 2013 #202

You posted that. But here's the problem. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #206

Astaneh's photos and WPI's photos show melted steel. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #210

There are no photos or samples that link steel beams to a steel stalagmite. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #213

You keep repeating this invented and irrelevant specification. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #217

The stalagmite hasn't been established AS steel. The beams do not show the type of melting that AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #219

The sack contains Dr. Astaneh's statement that he saw melting of girders. nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #224

Which is negated by the fact he took zero pictures of it. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #227

How do you know the girder wasn't slagged? Ace Acme Oct 2013 #230

If you'd ever cut steel with any heat source, you'd know the self-evident answer to that question. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #231

I've cut steel with heat. You're bluffing. nt Ace Acme Oct 2013 #232

Clearly you have not, or you wouldn't be pretending that the beam resembles AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #233

You arfe imposing your phony conditions again Ace Acme Oct 2013 #234

Keep pretending. I would too, if I was invested in an idea and boxed into a corner. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #235

So you admit that you pretend, rather than admit when you're wrong. Ace Acme Oct 2013 #236

I'd take EVIDENCE of a slagged beam. Like a photo. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #237

I'm not refusing anything Ace Acme Oct 2013 #238

Retreat away. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #239

I'm pointing at photos that show melted steel. "Slagged" is your phony specification, Ace Acme Nov 2013 #240

You're showing eroded beams that have no connection whatsoever with a stalagmite. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #241

I'm pointing at photos that show melted steel. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #242

No, this is what you did. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #243

"Eutectic corrosion" is "melting". You are playing with words. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #244

A lie. Produce the assay of Dr. Jones claim of 'formerly molten ingot'. AtheistCrusader Nov 2013 #245

There is nothing false about my analogies. They illustrate the flaws in your reasoning. Ace Acme Nov 2013 #246

Keep in mind, ATSM A36 steel is super mild carbon steel. AtheistCrusader Oct 2013 #71

Thermite was found at the site damnedifIknow Jul 2013 #52

No, it was not William Seger Jul 2013 #53

do you know.... wildbilln864 Jul 2013 #62

Yep! William Seger Jul 2013 #63

Actually you can pick it up at WalMart. AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #54

actually it's probably quite easy to make..... wildbilln864 Jul 2013 #61

It is insulting to use the epithet "conspiracy theorists" on almost every text panel. BlueStreak Oct 2013 #109

How do you expect them to hypnotize us with the meme Ace Acme Oct 2013 #150