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iverglas

(38,549 posts)
43. I generally adhere to your approach
Wed Feb 8, 2012, 11:03 AM
Feb 2012

To persuade someone, you first have to identify your existing common ground -- the fundamental values that you share. Then you proceed from there to see whether their specific positions are consistent or inconsistent with those values.

The problem that arises, of course, is that the fundamental values that we all share (not just us good guys) are in fundamental conflict from the outset: we all value freedom, and we all value security, for ourselves and for everyone. It becomes a question of which side each of us comes down on on any particular issue: freedom/security, me/the rest of you.

But it is still the only way to begin a persuasive argument. With your n-word/c-word example, start by identifying the facts relevant to the decision in the first case (historical disadvantage, etc.), the values to which the proscription on the one responds, how the proscription promotes or infringes one value or the other, how it subordinates the me to the rest of you or vice versa, and how your interlocutor conducted the balancing and tradeoff exercise to arrive at their preferred result.

Then apply it all mutatis mutandis to the other group. Your interlocutor needs to come up with relevant distinctions in order to reject the proposal that the two are like and must be treated as like. If "free speech" doesn't defeat a prohibition on one word, then it can't defeat a prohibition on the other word, unless there is some distinction between the situations that actually operates to make them unlike in a material way.

The huge barrier to doing this here, I'd say, is just the monumentally incivil discourse that is practised and rewarded here. One cannot ask a simple, straightforward question without being met by diversion; one cannot make a simple, straightforward statement without being met by misrepresentation. And always the character assassination at every turn.

Maybe somebody could model the process for the audience here.

How do you discuss it? For starters, don't refer to people who disagree with you... TheWraith Feb 2012 #1
Excuse me, but this is not a new subject boston bean Feb 2012 #2
are you man or woman. and yes, it matters. i put my gender on profile seabeyond Feb 2012 #6
I think that is a fair question to. boston bean Feb 2012 #9
Amen! lillypaddle Feb 2012 #16
please read the post now pinned at the top of this group iverglas Feb 2012 #17
please read the post now pinned at the top of this group iverglas Feb 2012 #18
I'm just going to start adding little co-host reminders to threads iverglas Feb 2012 #3
This message was self-deleted by its author boston bean Feb 2012 #5
my apologies for causing confusion! iverglas Feb 2012 #7
I just deleted, cause i thought that I had to have been confused. boston bean Feb 2012 #8
i stole your picture. did you see? it says it all. nt seabeyond Feb 2012 #11
The one of the women battered and the b word? boston bean Feb 2012 #12
yes. nt seabeyond Feb 2012 #14
I'd like to see it too Remember Me Feb 2012 #26
here ya go iverglas Feb 2012 #27
Thank you. That's definitely getting bookmarked and saved. Remember Me Feb 2012 #34
"not quite so tired" me, too.... cause it matters an it is a good subject. nt seabeyond Feb 2012 #10
Also, I'm a bit tired too boston bean Feb 2012 #13
This message was self-deleted by its author boston bean Feb 2012 #4
Post removed Post removed Feb 2012 #15
I'd like group members to take a look at Feldspar's hidden post iverglas Feb 2012 #19
what is interesting is it is the second gay woman kicked off du, thru our forum, not by us.. seabeyond Feb 2012 #21
Post removed Post removed Feb 2012 #22
thank you iverglas Feb 2012 #23
AND THE VENDETTA MARCHES ON - SEE POST 42 BELOW iverglas Feb 2012 #25
post 19 was sent to a jury iverglas Feb 2012 #24
Some one -- or some small group, perhaps -- is having a GREAT DEAL of fun Remember Me Feb 2012 #28
EDITED - so how many here agree with this characterization of this thread and this group? iverglas Feb 2012 #29
EDITED for Gormy Cuss and Neoma Wednesday 2:30 pm (re post 46) iverglas Feb 2012 #30
how goeth the war? iverglas Feb 2012 #31
I've got a suggestion, and it's aimed at everyone, including our vindictive alerter... Violet_Crumble Feb 2012 #40
absolutely violet.... it has got to stop. nt seabeyond Feb 2012 #41
Post removed Post removed Feb 2012 #42
IMHO, there's not one vindictive alerter, there are many alerters acting in good faith. Gormy Cuss Feb 2012 #46
What's this 'cheering section' stuff? You know what I think would help? redqueen Feb 2012 #47
Cheering sections support only one team. Gormy Cuss Feb 2012 #48
Thanks. redqueen Feb 2012 #49
I apologize for derailing the thread a little with my previous post iverglas Feb 2012 #20
I suspect this is a marketing issue. ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #32
i think i am going to think about your post, lol. nt seabeyond Feb 2012 #33
I think your starting assumptions are naïve. laconicsax Feb 2012 #35
thank you for that iverglas Feb 2012 #36
My starting assumptions could be naive, but I lean toward the vocal minority "theory." ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #37
We need to address the root of the problem before we can make any progress. laconicsax Feb 2012 #38
Except perhaps for a few trolls, the FR folks self identify as anti-Democrat. ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #39
I generally adhere to your approach iverglas Feb 2012 #43
I agree with your post, but I would like to add that we ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #44
Should we let the women decide? Remember Me Feb 2012 #50
Feel free to do whatever you wish. nt ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #51
Yeah, well -- Remember Me Feb 2012 #52
To be perfectly honest, I brushed you off because you hurt my feelings. ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #53
I'm glad you won't give up defending feminism maddezmom Feb 2012 #54
Thanks, that means a lot. nt ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #58
Well, it sounds like you have some very good credentials Remember Me Feb 2012 #55
"I invite you to PM me when you're doing the Goddess's work in some thread on DU, will you?" ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #57
Okay Remember Me Feb 2012 #60
I just thought you were telling me to go away with your first reply. ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #61
Your input is wanted Lisa D Feb 2012 #56
Thanks, that means a lot. nt ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #59
I don't mean to be an ass, but I am discussing this with another DUer, ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #45
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