Feminists

You've chosen to ascribe an emotion to me right off the bat rather than acknowledge that I said something.

I think this sort of thing may actually come from the c1970 days of second-wave feminism ...

I wasn't a good touchy-feely feminist. You may not be surprised that in the other forum where I post regularly, where most posters are men, and in all the places on the internet where I am hated with a white hot passion as a result of that posting (and I'm not ascribing that emotion; they state it), I am assumed by virtually every comer to be a man on first contact. I don't deal in emotions much.

The whole rant before saying "I'm not really at all concerned about what you, as the person who wrote those posts and that message, have to say." totally proves this sentence false.

Very civil. Very civil. What I wrote was a "rant" and it disproves my statement that I am not concerned about your "comment on all this back & forth".

Did you seriously not follow that? I thought it was pretty clear that I was not concerned about your opinion in this thread because you are someone who behaved as you did in the LGBT group.

So what? You're going to dismiss something the feminist community did to the lesbian community out of hand. Not taking into consideration that it may well effect people that may participate in this site or this group? Also, not everything is about you iverglas.

You see, here's where I am always torn between thinking someone really believes what they said, and thinking they're just saying it for effect, and not knowing which is worse.

So what -- in the context of this discussion obviously. What does the behaviour of some people I've never heard of, three or four decades ago, have to do with what we are being told in this thread, which does have to do with me?

If it affects people who may participate here, like you, how? In what way, that it would result in them privileging the interests of their other identity group or groups over the interests of women? Hold a grudge against those women all you want. What does it have to do with anyone here?

Hell, tell us about it. Tell us how it made you feel, how it affected your life, how it affected your community, teach us something. If you don't think it's your job to teach (and I, for one, would not really fault you for that), consider sharing it with us. Get pissy with anybody who doesn't respond as you think is appropriate. I have no problem with pissy. As long as it is honest.

But don't come here laying blame and insinuating and disparaging and dismissing. (And I speak to a nebulous collective you here.)

Just because you think it's dumb that feminists have told me, to my face, that because of my lesbianism I can't be a feminist doesn't make it any less true or any less sexist but it's happened.

I should have realized that was going to come off unclear. I meant that what you described other people as doing sounded dumb on their part.

I've lived a fairly sheltered feminist life -- in a medium-sized city in Canada, we just tended to get on with the job, and also, nationally, the job in general has tended to be the "liberal" aspects -- which can be criticized, but it does mean that we have secured all the rights you have not yet got. Women's equality rights in the Constitution. No criminal restrictions on access to abortion. Equality rights, period, in the constitution. Equality rights extended to gay men and lesbians. (I don't know whether anybody's tried to discriminate against a trans person or any other member of your community yet, but if they did, it wouldn't work.) Loads of benefits for women: parental leave covered by unemployment insurance (in addition to short-term actual maternity leave, a year to be divided by the parents as they see fit -- including adoptive parents, and including same-sex parents); pension rights for same-sex partners (years and years ago). In my field, a large proportion of the public service workforce is gay and lesbian; my old boss years ago and her partner, both in the same organization, are; one of the handful of people I was brought in to train at odd times was; my current partner on a long-term contract we're sharing, at my invitation, is; several of the people working directly with Parliament are. And that's just of the not too many whom I know personally. Although I've never met my current partner in real life since he's way far away; the internet is grand.

We had a federally-funded thing called the Court Challenges Program, up until the new right-wing government killed it a few years ago. It paid for constitutional challenges to rights violations by governments. It covered a lot of GLBT issues, up to and including same-sex marriage. The program funded challenges by any group covered by the prohibition on discrimination, which includes the ground of sexual orientation, by the interpretation of the Supreme Court quite a while back.

So my experience is totally outside yours. There were some lesbian-straight conflicts, yes, but I was not involved and I couldn't really tell you much what they were about. Not a great admission, but there I was, working on my own end of things, much as you say you are. I've actually been far more active in tenant rights, immigrant rights and international solidarity than I have in formal feminist stuff.

Your experience still doesn't speak of anyone here, or justify any mistreatment of anyone here. And there has been mistreatment, from your "side". Whether there has been mistreatment in the other direction -- I have never seen any. Dissent is not mistreatment.

Are you more sensitive to dissent than others might be? Than me, no doubt. But because of your experiences, do you feel dissent as mistreatment? Say so. Get clarification.

You can't compute because you don't experience an additional level of discrimination unless you're a lesbian. Which would explain why I may have a different point of view on feminism than you might. That was the whole point of making sure the SOP is inclusive.

And I am still waiting for someone to tell me what that different pov might be, and how it might stem from these other identities. Could we not cut the meta-discussion and cut to the chase?

I think I stated the differences in my post. Lesbians experience an additional level of discrimination (in the US anyway, I can't speak to Canada) based on our sexual orientation and a look or having people no longer talk to you can't really be explained other than saying we experience an additional level of discrimination that forms our worldview.

But it does not say anything about anyone else here. And that's the issue. Not whether your issues should be discussed here as encompassed by feminist issues (that would be up for discussion, I suppose, based on what they were and how they were to be discussed). But why there is this prima facie hostility to other feminists, flowing from your "side". I'm not hostile you you or your issues or your concerns; I'm hostile when I'm attacked without cause.

Instead of 'defending' Lioness or my opinion that there can be different viewpoints on feminism you've actually argued that we aren't fit to host the community because we didn't stand up in your defense in another thread.

No, I didn't. You both participated in the attacks, and the "you" in question was not just me, let's remember. And I can't imagine why someone who has attacked members of this group in other forums would consider hosting this group. Would that happen in the LBGT group?

If your worldview really is so coloured by bad experiences that you can't see other feminists and what they say for what they actually are, rather than for what you for some reason expect or want them to be, well, don't know what to say. Spend some more time reading here, maybe, standing back a little farther.

For pity's sake, I have no idea why I would want to narrow the discussion to only one branch or version or subset of feminism. I'd have to rule myself out if that progressed too far (and of course in a much more sophisticated way than I'd expect to see here! -- no offence to those who are more sophisticated in this area than I).

I am simply one of many who has had too much of being attacked, and not engaged.