Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

dairydog91

(951 posts)
10. Care to fill us in more on "centuries of precedent"?
Tue Oct 13, 2015, 08:53 PM
Oct 2015

Claiming "centuries of precedent" would imply that there are Supreme Court cases, dating back hundreds of years, which follow the "collective rights" interpretation. I don't think that there are any Supreme Court cases besides Miller, a 1939 case, which even started to define that right.

As far as state court interpretation, well, the article displays a form of dishonesty which many lawyers are very familiar with. When faced with a blizzard of cases interpreting a particular phrase, cherry pick the cases which support your argument, describe them in great detail ("There are MANY cases which support me&quot , and conveniently omit all cases which contradict you. In this particular article, watch the author find one state court case which does support his/her case (the 1840 Tennessee case), while casually omitting, say, Nunn v. Georgia (1846, Georgia state supreme court held that the Second Amendment protected an individual right to bear arms for self-defense).

I wouldn't say whether the Georgia or Tennessee interpretation was predominant, but I do think the unmentioned nature of Nunn discredits the author's attempt to claim that one particular interpretation was definitive. The least they could do with their research is actually offer an honest survey of ALL gun law cases interpreting the scope of "keep and bear arms". All this article (And you!) seem to be doing is going fishing for a favorable case and ignoring contradicting caselaw. Not a great start at offering a compelling definition of the "true" meaning of the Second Amendment.

Edit: And the Nunn court's view of the Second Amendment? Hoo boy, is that a doozy for gun control. "The right of the whole people, old and young, men, women and boys, and not militia only, to keep and bear arms of every description, not such merely as are used by the militia, shall not be infringed, curtailed, or broken in upon, in the smallest degree; and all this for the important end to be attained: the rearing up and qualifying a well-regulated militia, so vitally necessary to the security of a free State." That is, in this view, the Second Amendment does not limit the keeping and bearing of arms to members of the militia; rather, it ensures that everyone has the right to be armed to the teeth so that if the state wishes to create or expand its well-regulated militia, it may draw from its own gun-totin' populace. Super short version: Guns for everyone!

I have been saying this forever. As I equally have been saying how INSANE it is we have randys1 Oct 2015 #1
There is a proposal in Illinois to automatically register anyone who signs up for a Driver's guillaumeb Oct 2015 #3
California just did that I think. randys1 Oct 2015 #4
Off topic but on target. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #5
Election fraud, is what cons do, and they do it in every single election they have a candidate. OT randys1 Oct 2015 #6
Also from the article: guillaumeb Oct 2015 #2
Yet the founding fathers, as Englishmen, enjoyed an individual right to bear arms hack89 Oct 2015 #7
The article is by Cass Sunstein. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #8
The Bill of Rights is a list of individual rights. Period. End of conversation. hack89 Oct 2015 #9
There are no unlimited rights. Even in the Heller decision, the SCOTUS guillaumeb Oct 2015 #13
Never said the 2A was unlimited. Nt hack89 Oct 2015 #23
Indeed. There are no communal or states' rights, only individual rights. Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #26
In my opinion, the problem with the misinterpretation is because people don't understand the Ghost in the Machine Oct 2015 #12
Care to fill us in more on "centuries of precedent"? dairydog91 Oct 2015 #10
cherry picking is an NRA specialty, especially when they make claims about how guns make guillaumeb Oct 2015 #14
Changing the language to "uniform understanding" doesn't seem relevant. dairydog91 Oct 2015 #18
Umm, Heller was not spearheaded by the NRA; in fact, they dragged along later... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #27
The lawyer behind the Heller suit... PoliticAverse Oct 2015 #53
Let me help you with this.. virginia mountainman Oct 2015 #11
Nice picture. I wish I knew how to include pictures in my posts. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #15
it meant well functioning gejohnston Oct 2015 #16
Do yuo have anything to back up your interpretation of well regulated guillaumeb Oct 2015 #17
which has nothing to do with the US gejohnston Oct 2015 #20
More help... virginia mountainman Oct 2015 #22
breakfast amendment FAIL jimmy the one Oct 2015 #29
See Rose's "American Rifle: A Biography" for primary documentation... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #28
To you, all all here who insist that all US residents are part of this "well regulated militia" guillaumeb Oct 2015 #30
To both your questions: No. Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #41
Why, yes, I do... tortoise1956 Oct 2015 #62
You might wish to look at Article 8 of the US Constitution, especially the clauses relating to a guillaumeb Oct 2015 #65
Section 8, actually... tortoise1956 Oct 2015 #67
And the Militia Acts of 1792, jmg257 Oct 2015 #73
Hamilton did...in Federalist #29 jmg257 Oct 2015 #72
And also consider this -- well-reguluated as an adj modifies militia and not the people. aikoaiko Nov 2015 #103
Your citations are interesting, but the Second Amendment and guillaumeb Nov 2015 #104
And Heller is now being used as a way to limit the right jmg257 Nov 2015 #106
The "law of unintended consequences"? eom guillaumeb Nov 2015 #108
Or "be careful what you wish for"! nt jmg257 Nov 2015 #113
Adding pictures is pretty easy. GGJohn Oct 2015 #21
Thanks. I did not realize that cut and paste worked in this context. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #31
Glad to be of help. GGJohn Oct 2015 #34
What part of "well regulated" don't YOU understand? Lurks Often Oct 2015 #25
An excellent question always deserves an excellent answer. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #32
How very nice of you to duck the "well regulated" part Lurks Often Oct 2015 #33
And I find no merit in the NRA view. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #35
I am struck by your repeated use of NRA "view" & "talking point." They aren't the only... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #43
your views, and my views, represent our personal opinions. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #46
President Obama & the Democratic Party have stated the 2nd Amendment is an individual right Lurks Often Oct 2015 #51
Plenty of conservatives want to reduce or eliminate a civil liberty or two aikoaiko Oct 2015 #19
I find it hard to believe individuals didn't own guns until 2008. ileus Oct 2015 #24
I find this statement to be either uninformed or deliberately obtuse. Or possibly sarcasm? guillaumeb Oct 2015 #36
Well, it didn't take long to be expressed. Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #44
alan dershowitz pro militia jimmy the one Oct 2015 #37
alan dershowitz pro torture friendly_iconoclast Oct 2015 #39
A very nice response, but rather than the word miscomception I prefer guillaumeb Oct 2015 #47
militia centric jimmy the one Oct 2015 #52
I grounded my argument in the militia view because it corresponds to the Constitution and guillaumeb Oct 2015 #54
Sad thing is some folks buy into this BS. ileus Oct 2015 #38
...and demand the rest of us agree with them friendly_iconoclast Oct 2015 #40
2ndA was NOT an english individual rkba jimmy the one Oct 2015 #42
Exactly. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #48
you want stars & bars back too? jimmy the one Oct 2015 #45
Another great response. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #49
get a load of lurkso's source jimmy the one Oct 2015 #50
Remember when William Clinton attempted to defend his lies guillaumeb Oct 2015 #56
well regulated AND disciplined jimmy the one Oct 2015 #60
From the Constitution: guillaumeb Oct 2015 #61
individual rkba a corollary to militia clause jimmy the one Oct 2015 #55
There is even more to consider: guillaumeb Oct 2015 #57
You didn't mention the recreation of "the Militias of the Several States", jmg257 Oct 2015 #82
A very interresting point. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #84
Correct! A large standing Army-the very thing the militia clauses and the 2nd was trying to prevent! jmg257 Oct 2015 #86
I believe William Rawle... tortoise1956 Oct 2015 #63
Be prepared for a snarky remark from JTO, GGJohn Oct 2015 #64
Any chance you'd like to visit a casino? beevul Oct 2015 #69
LOL. GGJohn Oct 2015 #70
Rawle, Story, Oliver on 2ndA jimmy the one Oct 2015 #66
Interesting reply tortoise1956 Oct 2015 #68
not a lone voice, but irkba has 'no voice' jimmy the one Oct 2015 #71
Not the case tortoise1956 Oct 2015 #74
story rawle & tucker were militia believers jimmy the one Nov 2015 #90
Actually, I'm quoting Justice Stevens about the individual right tortoise1956 Nov 2015 #92
Consider that according to... discntnt_irny_srcsm Nov 2015 #93
I agree, but tortoise1956 Nov 2015 #94
It is plain from the various Militia Acts from 1792 to 1903... discntnt_irny_srcsm Nov 2015 #95
Yes - but times change, as do the laws, and notions of what is necessary... jmg257 Nov 2015 #96
Numerous times the usage "well regulated" has been discussed... discntnt_irny_srcsm Nov 2015 #97
heller dissent on 2ndA did not claim individual rkba jimmy the one Nov 2015 #98
Ahem. "Surely it protects a right that can be enforced by individuals." friendly_iconoclast Nov 2015 #99
iconic flop jimmy the one Nov 2015 #100
This is the last time I engage you, since you can't be bothered to actually fact-check yourself tortoise1956 Nov 2015 #114
tortoises are slow jimmy the one Nov 2015 #115
I spoke too soon tortoise1956 Nov 2015 #116
good rid jimmy the one Nov 2015 #117
tucker & english game laws 1671 jimmy the one Nov 2015 #91
you're wrong jimmy the one Oct 2015 #58
Excellent points about Heller. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #59
No police force? Straw Man Oct 2015 #75
What I SHOULD have written, guillaumeb Oct 2015 #76
Clarification received ... Straw Man Oct 2015 #77
Perhaps more of a "perceived need" for personal self defense? guillaumeb Oct 2015 #78
actually, the total homicide rate is gejohnston Oct 2015 #79
Nevertheless. Straw Man Oct 2015 #80
My comment was on the big difference between actual and perceived need. eom guillaumeb Oct 2015 #81
Difference based on misinterpretation of stats. nt Straw Man Oct 2015 #83
Will you provide clarification? guillaumeb Oct 2015 #85
Clarification. Straw Man Oct 2015 #87
True. Homicide does not directly equate but any time that a homicide takes place, guillaumeb Oct 2015 #88
Right. Straw Man Oct 2015 #89
Thanks for posting. patsimp Nov 2015 #101
My pleasure. I posted in response to all the fantasy history here. guillaumeb Nov 2015 #105
Fd riversedge Nov 2015 #102
The 'gun lobby' didn't rewrite anything. beevul Nov 2015 #107
You reply ignores the plain language of the Second Amendment, guillaumeb Nov 2015 #109
On the contrary. beevul Nov 2015 #110
Article 1, Section 8, US Constitution: guillaumeb Nov 2015 #111
Nonsense. beevul Nov 2015 #112
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Gun Control & RKBA»This message was self-del...»Reply #10