Gun Control & RKBA

jimmy the one

(2,717 posts)

60. well regulated AND disciplined

Thu Oct 15, 2015, 03:00 PM

Oct 2015

guillaume: Interesting research on the source for the argument about what "well regulated" means, or meant.

They're adhering to the pro gun canard that 'regulated' circa 1791 simply meant disciplined &/or orderly, with no proscriptions or restrictions on guns per se - creating the individual rkba-snbi canard.
Imagine: An orderly militia, being necessary for the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep & bear arms snbi.
Strikes fear in the heart of any old tyrannical govt, wouldn't it? parading militia men marching in unison down the middle of the streets to fight.

The articles of confederation, in force during the rev-war, had this 'have arms' decree:

Art VI of the Articles {of confederation} stated in part: “…Every state shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed…and shall provide…a proper quantity of arms…”

If 'well regulated' simply meant 'disciplined', adversaries, wouldn't the articles of confederation be redundant in using the 'and' word between them in the have arms decree?????

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This message was self-deleted by its author [View all] guillaumeb Oct 2015 OP

I have been saying this forever. As I equally have been saying how INSANE it is we have randys1 Oct 2015 #1

There is a proposal in Illinois to automatically register anyone who signs up for a Driver's guillaumeb Oct 2015 #3

California just did that I think. randys1 Oct 2015 #4

Off topic but on target. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #5

Election fraud, is what cons do, and they do it in every single election they have a candidate. OT randys1 Oct 2015 #6

Also from the article: guillaumeb Oct 2015 #2

Yet the founding fathers, as Englishmen, enjoyed an individual right to bear arms hack89 Oct 2015 #7

The article is by Cass Sunstein. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #8

The Bill of Rights is a list of individual rights. Period. End of conversation. hack89 Oct 2015 #9

There are no unlimited rights. Even in the Heller decision, the SCOTUS guillaumeb Oct 2015 #13

Never said the 2A was unlimited. Nt hack89 Oct 2015 #23

Indeed. There are no communal or states' rights, only individual rights. Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #26

In my opinion, the problem with the misinterpretation is because people don't understand the Ghost in the Machine Oct 2015 #12

Care to fill us in more on "centuries of precedent"? dairydog91 Oct 2015 #10

cherry picking is an NRA specialty, especially when they make claims about how guns make guillaumeb Oct 2015 #14

Changing the language to "uniform understanding" doesn't seem relevant. dairydog91 Oct 2015 #18

Umm, Heller was not spearheaded by the NRA; in fact, they dragged along later... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #27

The lawyer behind the Heller suit... PoliticAverse Oct 2015 #53

Let me help you with this.. virginia mountainman Oct 2015 #11

Nice picture. I wish I knew how to include pictures in my posts. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #15

it meant well functioning gejohnston Oct 2015 #16

Do yuo have anything to back up your interpretation of well regulated guillaumeb Oct 2015 #17

which has nothing to do with the US gejohnston Oct 2015 #20

More help... virginia mountainman Oct 2015 #22

breakfast amendment FAIL jimmy the one Oct 2015 #29

See Rose's "American Rifle: A Biography" for primary documentation... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #28

To you, all all here who insist that all US residents are part of this "well regulated militia" guillaumeb Oct 2015 #30

To both your questions: No. Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #41

Why, yes, I do... tortoise1956 Oct 2015 #62

You might wish to look at Article 8 of the US Constitution, especially the clauses relating to a guillaumeb Oct 2015 #65

Section 8, actually... tortoise1956 Oct 2015 #67

And the Militia Acts of 1792, jmg257 Oct 2015 #73

Hamilton did...in Federalist #29 jmg257 Oct 2015 #72

And also consider this -- well-reguluated as an adj modifies militia and not the people. aikoaiko Nov 2015 #103

Your citations are interesting, but the Second Amendment and guillaumeb Nov 2015 #104

And Heller is now being used as a way to limit the right jmg257 Nov 2015 #106

The "law of unintended consequences"? eom guillaumeb Nov 2015 #108

Or "be careful what you wish for"! nt jmg257 Nov 2015 #113

Adding pictures is pretty easy. GGJohn Oct 2015 #21

Thanks. I did not realize that cut and paste worked in this context. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #31

Glad to be of help. GGJohn Oct 2015 #34

What part of "well regulated" don't YOU understand? Lurks Often Oct 2015 #25

An excellent question always deserves an excellent answer. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #32

How very nice of you to duck the "well regulated" part Lurks Often Oct 2015 #33

And I find no merit in the NRA view. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #35

I am struck by your repeated use of NRA "view" & "talking point." They aren't the only... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #43

your views, and my views, represent our personal opinions. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #46

President Obama & the Democratic Party have stated the 2nd Amendment is an individual right Lurks Often Oct 2015 #51

Plenty of conservatives want to reduce or eliminate a civil liberty or two aikoaiko Oct 2015 #19

I find it hard to believe individuals didn't own guns until 2008. ileus Oct 2015 #24

I find this statement to be either uninformed or deliberately obtuse. Or possibly sarcasm? guillaumeb Oct 2015 #36

Well, it didn't take long to be expressed. Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #44

alan dershowitz pro militia jimmy the one Oct 2015 #37

alan dershowitz pro torture friendly_iconoclast Oct 2015 #39

A very nice response, but rather than the word miscomception I prefer guillaumeb Oct 2015 #47

militia centric jimmy the one Oct 2015 #52

I grounded my argument in the militia view because it corresponds to the Constitution and guillaumeb Oct 2015 #54

Sad thing is some folks buy into this BS. ileus Oct 2015 #38

...and demand the rest of us agree with them friendly_iconoclast Oct 2015 #40

2ndA was NOT an english individual rkba jimmy the one Oct 2015 #42

Exactly. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #48

you want stars & bars back too? jimmy the one Oct 2015 #45

Another great response. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #49

get a load of lurkso's source jimmy the one Oct 2015 #50

Remember when William Clinton attempted to defend his lies guillaumeb Oct 2015 #56

well regulated AND disciplined jimmy the one Oct 2015 #60

From the Constitution: guillaumeb Oct 2015 #61

individual rkba a corollary to militia clause jimmy the one Oct 2015 #55

There is even more to consider: guillaumeb Oct 2015 #57

You didn't mention the recreation of "the Militias of the Several States", jmg257 Oct 2015 #82

A very interresting point. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #84

Correct! A large standing Army-the very thing the militia clauses and the 2nd was trying to prevent! jmg257 Oct 2015 #86

I believe William Rawle... tortoise1956 Oct 2015 #63

Be prepared for a snarky remark from JTO, GGJohn Oct 2015 #64

Any chance you'd like to visit a casino? beevul Oct 2015 #69

LOL. GGJohn Oct 2015 #70

Rawle, Story, Oliver on 2ndA jimmy the one Oct 2015 #66

Interesting reply tortoise1956 Oct 2015 #68

not a lone voice, but irkba has 'no voice' jimmy the one Oct 2015 #71

Not the case tortoise1956 Oct 2015 #74

story rawle & tucker were militia believers jimmy the one Nov 2015 #90

Actually, I'm quoting Justice Stevens about the individual right tortoise1956 Nov 2015 #92

Consider that according to... discntnt_irny_srcsm Nov 2015 #93

I agree, but tortoise1956 Nov 2015 #94

It is plain from the various Militia Acts from 1792 to 1903... discntnt_irny_srcsm Nov 2015 #95

Yes - but times change, as do the laws, and notions of what is necessary... jmg257 Nov 2015 #96

Numerous times the usage "well regulated" has been discussed... discntnt_irny_srcsm Nov 2015 #97

heller dissent on 2ndA did not claim individual rkba jimmy the one Nov 2015 #98

Ahem. "Surely it protects a right that can be enforced by individuals." friendly_iconoclast Nov 2015 #99

iconic flop jimmy the one Nov 2015 #100

This is the last time I engage you, since you can't be bothered to actually fact-check yourself tortoise1956 Nov 2015 #114

tortoises are slow jimmy the one Nov 2015 #115

I spoke too soon tortoise1956 Nov 2015 #116

good rid jimmy the one Nov 2015 #117

tucker & english game laws 1671 jimmy the one Nov 2015 #91

you're wrong jimmy the one Oct 2015 #58

Excellent points about Heller. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #59

No police force? Straw Man Oct 2015 #75

What I SHOULD have written, guillaumeb Oct 2015 #76

Clarification received ... Straw Man Oct 2015 #77

Perhaps more of a "perceived need" for personal self defense? guillaumeb Oct 2015 #78

actually, the total homicide rate is gejohnston Oct 2015 #79

Nevertheless. Straw Man Oct 2015 #80

My comment was on the big difference between actual and perceived need. eom guillaumeb Oct 2015 #81

Difference based on misinterpretation of stats. nt Straw Man Oct 2015 #83

Will you provide clarification? guillaumeb Oct 2015 #85

Clarification. Straw Man Oct 2015 #87

True. Homicide does not directly equate but any time that a homicide takes place, guillaumeb Oct 2015 #88

Right. Straw Man Oct 2015 #89

Thanks for posting. patsimp Nov 2015 #101

My pleasure. I posted in response to all the fantasy history here. guillaumeb Nov 2015 #105

Fd riversedge Nov 2015 #102

The 'gun lobby' didn't rewrite anything. beevul Nov 2015 #107

You reply ignores the plain language of the Second Amendment, guillaumeb Nov 2015 #109

On the contrary. beevul Nov 2015 #110

Article 1, Section 8, US Constitution: guillaumeb Nov 2015 #111

Nonsense. beevul Nov 2015 #112