Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
80. I currently "live with" tens of thousands of alcohol-related deaths a year...
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 01:59 PM
Oct 2015

Most Americans do, as they do with other causes of death. I Certainly live with the nearly 50% DROP in gun-related homicides over the last 20+ years. The control of handguns, which you seem to imply is the means to reduce gun-deaths by some tolerable level, does not seem feasible. Such a cheme would be tantamount to a national registry in a country quite capable of quickly and efficiently evading prohibitionist measures. I say prohibitionist because elements within the gun control outlook Will immediately move to greater restrictions, up to and including confiscation and blanket ciminalization (the latter Always a feature in any prohibition). Examples of this can be found in CA, and have been posted here. In the event, such a scheme may run against the Constitution, and would be unworkable.

As has or will be stated here, some states have had such registries with no convincing long-term causal relationship to gun-crime rates. Usually, registries are passed to prevent certain races and ethnicities from acquiring guns; NYC's "Sullivan Laws" were passed during a wave of anti-Italian sentiment, esp. when Irish ethnic groups (some with ties to organized crime) felt threatened by comparable Italian groups. Most of the rest (north or south) stem from post-Reconstruction models enacted in the South. They are quite elitist even within dominant European control: Sylvester Stallone (a big fund-raising favorite with the Bradys) decries gun proliferation, but has a difficult to obtain concealed carry permit and a number of handguns listed on a CA "registry." Of course Diane Feinstein famously carried concealed for years. The Mediamatters outfit (no friend to the Second) used armed personnel to transfer large sums of cash, probably in violation of D.C.'s gun laws.

States have the powers to regulate the manner of carry, and I support that. I also support reasonable training where CC OR public-carry is in effect. I also support a univeral BG check for the U.S., assuming the interstate commerce clause allows such. This CAN be done in the individual states, but the gun-control outlook has no real presence in most states, and is otherwise pre-occupied with Beltway-generated regulations and restrictions, hoping its chief power source, MSM, will serve as a "movement." (At present MSM is certainly amping up its game, hoping to light something off, but we've seen this before.)

The best approach to this "problem" is to step back from the narrow, headline-grabbing doctrines of gun control and prohibition and ask:


JUST WHAT PROBLEMS ARE WE SOLVING?

1). Is it the schoolyard spectaculars which are driven by CelebroPunks who know a little immortaliy when they see it, in a culture which is slavish to celebrity more than it is to money? If so, these mass-murders account for a tiny % of gun-homicides a year. THIS CelebroPunk style is what drives the hateful gun-control rhetoric in DU and the U.S.

2). Is it the mournful murmur of the battlefield we call the Inner Cities? Perhaps, but this is NOT what causes GD to go into "Guns-Dicks" mode. Said another way, if mass murder dropped from -2.5 events/yr to, say, once every 2.5 years, would MSM resume pumping the gas for bans; would the owners of DU continue to allow a general blow out in GD; would most Americans give a flying fuck? The answer to this question goes a LONG WAY to clarifying the "issue of guns" as a public health/safety model ormjust another culture war.

3). Is it truly about crime rates? If so, it Must be recognized these rates have fallen during a period of massive gun availability expansion, and a great liberalization of gun laws. This should behoove anyone to ask WHAT HAS CAUSED these gun-crime rates to fall; i.e., it may not be about guns in the end.

We all need to step back and define problems, see what works, and make plausible proposals.

Thanks for your patience.



I think registration of all handguns would be safeinOhio Oct 2015 #1
Thanks EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #2
New York has had that ... Straw Man Oct 2015 #43
In that case safeinOhio Oct 2015 #47
It's the only way EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #50
It will never happen. Straw Man Oct 2015 #56
well.. EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #60
Are you sure ... Straw Man Oct 2015 #61
See here's the thing EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #65
The thing(s). Straw Man Oct 2015 #68
It's been done EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #70
No, it hasn't. Straw Man Oct 2015 #77
A push was made to ban handguns in the early-mid 70s... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #82
No attempt has ever been made EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #87
Google "National Coalition to Ban Hanguns..." Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #94
forming a coalition EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #111
Well, even I wouldn't equate the anti-gunners with flying pig advocacy.... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #131
You forget we aren't searched when entering NY state. jeff47 Oct 2015 #53
Prohibition banned alcohol from sea to shining sea. Straw Man Oct 2015 #57
Somehow, it works for every other industrialized nation. jeff47 Oct 2015 #62
The picture is far more complex ... Straw Man Oct 2015 #63
I've heard that exact argument used about MJ, against CO. beevul Oct 2015 #135
Fact check dot org safeinOhio Oct 2015 #69
welcome to DU discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2015 #3
thanks... and... EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #4
other than a media campaign about... discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2015 #7
wellll.... EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #9
politics is about barter discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2015 #10
the problem there EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #11
and what is it that pro-control is bringing to the table? n/t discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2015 #12
welll... EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #14
sure but you would need to PROVE that your law would absolutely improve... discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2015 #16
ehhh EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #20
one of the issues is the lack of common ground discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2015 #23
Our present laws have cut the murder rate in half hack89 Oct 2015 #35
no EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #51
So isn't the solution to a suicide "epidemic " hack89 Oct 2015 #59
one problem discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2015 #64
absolutely not EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #66
But there are no gun control measures short of confiscation hack89 Oct 2015 #67
lol EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #71
You at least admit you have no realistic solution hack89 Oct 2015 #74
Yup, Ireland's always been such a peacful, safe place with no violence to speak of DonP Oct 2015 #75
Theres that ugly word again. beevul Oct 2015 #13
decades of gun control is a stretch EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #15
See the national firearms act of 1934, do the math, and get back to me. beevul Oct 2015 #18
no EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #72
I hate to point out the obvious... beevul Oct 2015 #83
Well... EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #86
You recognize some of the obvious politics, branford Oct 2015 #95
of course not EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #108
You've proven my point. branford Oct 2015 #118
as you say EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #121
Do you wonder why gun rights are expanding? branford Oct 2015 #139
there's the catch 22 EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #142
Define "and it wil be painful" sarisataka Oct 2015 #146
except your predictions on demographic shifts are assumptions gejohnston Oct 2015 #147
So, at least we've implicitly established that you really have no intention branford Oct 2015 #148
except EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #149
except not gejohnston Oct 2015 #152
Excuse me? branford Oct 2015 #153
So your examples are EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #154
Ah, nothing is as heart warming as a child's simple faith. DonP Oct 2015 #155
Another echo discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2015 #126
Interesting. beevul Oct 2015 #97
10K kids injured and 3000 dead by guns a year EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #123
Yeah, like I said. Brady sycophant. beevul Oct 2015 #134
you need to read more carefully EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #143
but they are not children gejohnston Oct 2015 #144
The operative word, I believe, was 'children'. beevul Oct 2015 #145
riiiiight EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #150
So far, you're following the typical brady bunch script. beevul Oct 2015 #151
Most Americans don't like bartering with our rights yeoman6987 Oct 2015 #26
How about life liberty and the persuit of happyness are those rights? upaloopa Oct 2015 #129
All these good things are mentioned nowhere in the Constitution friendly_iconoclast Oct 2015 #140
there is a meme for that gejohnston Oct 2015 #17
the thing is EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #21
no they haven't gejohnston Oct 2015 #24
Excellent post..n/t Kang Colby Oct 2015 #30
sigh EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #44
Crickets..... safeinOhio Oct 2015 #48
Crickets? No. gejohnston Oct 2015 #90
Your WaPo articles speaks to gun violence, not violence as a whole as GE was speaking. Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2015 #54
Ive never said anything about house to house searches. safeinOhio Oct 2015 #92
Coincidentally, my post was not in response to any of your posts. Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2015 #96
the memes were a valid point gejohnston Oct 2015 #89
Would registration of handguns safeinOhio Oct 2015 #5
I suppose registration might be okay but... discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2015 #6
good to see you discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2015 #8
Welcome. I will respond when I have time to consider your questions thoroughly... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #19
ha! EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #22
Maybe and no. ileus Oct 2015 #25
I would restrict concealed carry permits to trained professionals with a demonstrated need. Maedhros Oct 2015 #27
Like it does in Vermont or Maine? n/t Kang Colby Oct 2015 #28
I'm not familiar with those states' concealed weapon laws. Maedhros Oct 2015 #31
In Maine and Vermont... Kang Colby Oct 2015 #32
Correlation is not causation. Maedhros Oct 2015 #33
I wasn't suggesting that it was. I was simply pointing out that a carrying populace does not Kang Colby Oct 2015 #34
It's not a phobia - it's a reasonable preference. Maedhros Oct 2015 #37
welll.... EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #41
No, it isn't, is it. Straw Man Oct 2015 #40
no need for utopia EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #42
Oh, the irony ... Straw Man Oct 2015 #45
Compare it however you want EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #49
Why not -- it works for you. Straw Man Oct 2015 #55
birds like warm weather jimmy the one Oct 2015 #52
Jimmy painfully elaborates the obvious. Straw Man Oct 2015 #58
is he or isn't he? jimmy the one Oct 2015 #73
Once more, Jimmy. Straw Man Oct 2015 #76
hypothesis defined for ray bolger's buddy jimmy the one Oct 2015 #78
Double duh. Straw Man Oct 2015 #79
I think, therefore I believe jimmy the one Oct 2015 #81
Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy ... Straw Man Oct 2015 #84
think again, my irrefutable rebuttal jimmy the one Oct 2015 #124
Stop letting dictionaries do your thinking for you. Straw Man Oct 2015 #137
arguing the absurd again he is jimmy the one Oct 2015 #156
So ... Straw Man Oct 2015 #157
absurdum ad infinitum jimmy the one Oct 2015 #158
Belief. Straw Man Oct 2015 #159
"Too bad no one but the two of us is reading it." Incorrect, unfortunately for the Stuart heir friendly_iconoclast Oct 2015 #160
A favor, if you would... sarisataka Oct 2015 #85
Why do controllers only care about "gun violence"? Kang Colby Oct 2015 #29
How do you figure EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #38
Yes. And ... Straw Man Oct 2015 #46
There are many ingredients. deathrind Oct 2015 #36
Very true EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #39
I currently "live with" tens of thousands of alcohol-related deaths a year... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #80
in fact EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #88
This kind of data we have all heard and argued many times... Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #91
there is no evidence to support gejohnston Oct 2015 #93
3 polls say gun ownership rates have fallen since '93 jimmy the one Oct 2015 #125
actually, only GSS actually says that gejohnston Oct 2015 #128
abracadabra, and he thinks he wins jimmy the one Oct 2015 #136
Allow me to reframe your question: guillaumeb Oct 2015 #98
Their restrictions were not common sense gejohnston Oct 2015 #99
Define "common sense" in a way that does not posit certain guillaumeb Oct 2015 #100
fact is, there have been mass shootings, as my link documented gejohnston Oct 2015 #101
I should have said that there are no mass killings in other countries like in the US. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #104
entirely different cultures gejohnston Oct 2015 #106
I cannot speak for Australians, but in my view, the difference guillaumeb Oct 2015 #107
the firearms death includes suicides gejohnston Oct 2015 #110
Can we agree to disagree without being disagreeable? guillaumeb Oct 2015 #112
This message was self-deleted by its author gejohnston Oct 2015 #113
well EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #109
Agreed. Killing will continue no matter the weapon employed. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #114
21K are suicides gejohnston Oct 2015 #115
FBI says that 20k are suicide. guillaumeb Oct 2015 #116
Suicide in general gejohnston Oct 2015 #117
When I do suicide assessments gwheezie Oct 2015 #132
Gun control will not do much to save lives, that being said... Kalidurga Oct 2015 #102
I agree with some of what you are talking about gejohnston Oct 2015 #103
I don't know about the percent of stolen guns either. Kalidurga Oct 2015 #105
The only questions that I'm interested in addressing are: pablo_marmol Oct 2015 #119
and what would you propose EdwardBernays Oct 2015 #120
they don't increase gejohnston Oct 2015 #122
I would propose that a good start would be for folks like you pablo_marmol Oct 2015 #138
Let's see two threads today about people getting shot by reckless concealed carry upaloopa Oct 2015 #127
define vigilante shooter gejohnston Oct 2015 #130
you know what I mean upaloopa Oct 2015 #133
Not really, as you've been rather vague friendly_iconoclast Oct 2015 #141
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Gun Control & RKBA»Questions the left won't ...»Reply #80