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jimmy the one

(2,717 posts)
40. Story's full quote, parsed
Wed Mar 30, 2016, 12:08 PM
Mar 2016

teddyR: I'd like to see some support For the argument that "the people" and "the Militia" mean the same thing. I mean, support from legal authority would be nice, other than your misreading of Story.

Sure, I can do that, from a former supreme court justice; tho I'm not misreading Justice Story, you are, perhaps following Scalia's heller misinterpretations.

From the very quote from Justice Jos Story we've been using. It's what I've been trying to get across.
Here is Justice Story's full quote, and note the emboldened parts. I've spaced the quote for clarity:

Justice Story on the 2ndAmendment: {year}1833 The importance of this {2ndA} article will scarcely be doubted by any persons, who have duly reflected upon the subject.
The militia is the natural defence of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpations of power by rulers.
It is against sound policy for a free people to keep up large military establishments and standing armies in time of peace, both from the enormous expenses, with which they are attended, and the facile means, which they afford to ambitious and unprincipled rulers, to subvert the government, or trample upon the rights of the people.
The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of a republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally, even if these are successful in the first instance, enable the people to resist and triumph over them.
And yet, though this truth would seem so clear, and the importance of a well regulated militia would seem so undeniable, it cannot be disguised, that among the American people there is a growing indifference to any system of militia discipline, and a strong disposition, from a sense of its burthens, to be rid of all regulations.
How it is practicable to keep the people duly armed without some organization, it is difficult to see. There is certainly no small danger, that indifference may lead to disgust, and disgust to contempt; and thus gradually undermine all the protection intended by this clause of our national bill of rights.
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendIIs10.html

Right after extolling the virtues of the MILITIA as the natural defense of a free country, Story notes that is was "..against sound policy for a free people to keep up large military establishments and standing armies..", then he immediately invokes "The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms...". Story was pretty clearly speaking of the citizens militia established by the militia act of 1792. To think Story was speaking of an individual rkba disconnected from militia service is ABSURD, after leading in with the importance of a well regulated militia.

Story then goes on to further link the 'People' with the militia: "How it is practicable to keep the people duly armed without some organization, it is difficult to see."
Nowhere in Story's entire quote does he mention or even hint unambiguously at an individual right to keep & bear arms. He is clearly in militia context start to finish, & uses 'the people', 'citizens', and 'militia' synonymously.

The sentence you admire so much, starting with 'The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms..', is immediately followed by Story with: "And yet, though this truth would seem so clear, and the importance of a well regulated militia would seem so undeniable,"

What do you think Story is referring back to? the right of the citizens to keep & bear arms, of course.

The 'citizens' Justice Story mentions, who had the right to keep & bear arms, comprised generally free white males of militia age, perhaps older white males as well. Free blacks could but likely didn't want to risk gun ownership back then. In other words, it wasn't ALL the citizens who had the right to keep & bear arms, only militia aged ones.

Story's final sentence expresses his concern that militia indifference may lead to disgust, and undermine the protection of the 2nd amendment, most probably the protection of the well regulated militia (since militia mentioned in previous sentence): "There is certainly no small danger, that indifference may lead to disgust, and disgust to contempt; and thus gradually undermine all the protection intended by this clause of our national bill of rights".

A well regulated militia? [View all] flamin lib Mar 2016 OP
If we were to live in a fact based world randr Mar 2016 #1
Please elaborate TeddyR Mar 2016 #2
Oh... let's see... 2naSalit Mar 2016 #6
As the individual below pointed out TeddyR Mar 2016 #11
After thinking about this TeddyR Mar 2016 #12
depends on which Bundy situation gejohnston Mar 2016 #15
Blocked traffic and threatened to murder folks with their guns? stone space Mar 2016 #21
illegally occupying or blocking public use of public land gejohnston Mar 2016 #24
I'll start randr Mar 2016 #9
Human beings are flawed... CompanyFirstSergeant Mar 2016 #3
Heller clarified that the Second Amendment TeddyR Mar 2016 #4
Heller "clarified" about as much as Bowers v Hardwick "clarified". stone space Mar 2016 #22
I'm sorry you don't like the fact TeddyR Mar 2016 #25
The 2A protects an individual right hack89 Mar 2016 #5
Do you have any comment on those sarisataka Mar 2016 #7
Bran muffins JonathanRackham Mar 2016 #8
Before the 2A, there was a guarantee to life and liberty. ileus Mar 2016 #10
Your logic is more cantilevered than an old railroad bridge... Eleanors38 Mar 2016 #13
Since the 'well regulated militia' has been recreated into the jmg257 Mar 2016 #14
This message was self-deleted by its author CompanyFirstSergeant Mar 2016 #16
Too many people misinterpret the 2nd Amendment *because* of the "well regulated militia" term... Ghost in the Machine Mar 2016 #17
Nice commentary but you missed the whole point of the OP. nt flamin lib Mar 2016 #18
No, your point was to try to lump all gun owners into a "militia", which is a false analogy. n/t Ghost in the Machine Mar 2016 #20
british scholars disagreed with heller jimmy the one Mar 2016 #30
remedial history for ghosts jimmy the one Mar 2016 #31
Why do you keep citing Miller? TeddyR Mar 2016 #32
It takes a militia jimmy the one Mar 2016 #33
I'd like to see some support TeddyR Mar 2016 #37
Story's full quote, parsed jimmy the one Mar 2016 #40
Thanks TeddyR Mar 2016 #42
You do Justice Story a disservice TeddyR Mar 2016 #43
Only 1% - 6% voted unanimous for G.Washington jimmy the one Apr 2016 #46
Here's a bit, when Congress was actually discussing the article that became the 2nd amendment... jmg257 Mar 2016 #41
Once again you twist Story's words tortoise1956 Apr 2016 #45
blackstone wasn't individual 'have arms' man jimmy the one Apr 2016 #47
Seems like you are confusing the military (armies, Navy) with the militia. jmg257 Mar 2016 #35
I think you are confused about who "the PEOPLE" are... Ghost in the Machine Mar 2016 #38
The Militia was formed from the body of the people, so yes - the people had their rights jmg257 Mar 2016 #39
You seem to confuse the militia with the individuals who may nor may not be in it. ManiacJoe Mar 2016 #19
A Well-Regulated Militia stone space Mar 2016 #23
Cartoons, the last resort of a poster who has nothing original of their own to say. Lurks Often Mar 2016 #26
Post removed Post removed Mar 2016 #28
Aww, do you have a sadz? Lurks Often Mar 2016 #29
It is understandable... beevul Mar 2016 #34
That one has less self control then most Lurks Often Mar 2016 #36
Amazing how this "art/journalism" form has remained so static in this day and age. nt Eleanors38 Apr 2016 #44
Members of a Christian militia accused of plotting an antigovernment uprising were acquitted... discntnt_irny_srcsm Mar 2016 #27
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