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jimmy the one

(2,717 posts)
31. british scholars weighed in, after heller
Tue Jan 17, 2017, 01:02 PM
Jan 2017

Dunno if you've seen this, HAB, a rebuttal to heller made circa 20008 (a repost of something I wrote in the past). Much more to it as well, check the link if still active:

British scholars, on heller decision: ... reconstructing the historical meaning of the right to “have arms” deserves better than Petitioners’ selective reading and mischaracterization of Blackstone’s reference to the “natural right of resistance and self-preservation,” the 1768 Boston Town Council’s militia resolve, and the grievance against Thomas Gage http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publishing/preview/publiced_preview_briefs_pdfs_09_10_08_1521_RespondentAmCuEnglishHistoriansnew.authcheckdam.pdf

Perhaps you've never seen the amici curiae which a consortium of 21 british scholars sent to the scalia led heller court, telling him how wrong he was regarding the british 'have arms' decree. So much so that scalia left out mentioning his 1689 'have arms' decree argument in 2011 McDonald.
I think this consortium of british scholars knows more about the have arms decree than ghost in the machine and wiki's pro gun spin & whatever rightwing blogs he cites; blackstone's remarks above were militia centric, and on English game laws were misunderstood since remarks occurred after ~1671 game laws had changed.

BRIEF FOR ENGLISH/EARLY AMERICAN HISTORIANS AS AMICI CURIAE IN SUPPORT OF RESPONDENTS
http://www.oyez.org/sites/default/files/cases/briefs/pdf/brief__08-1521__22.pdf
Amici simply urge that the Court base its decision on a well informed study of historical facts, which demonstrates that armed self-defense of the home by individuals acting for private interests was not the right enshrined in the Second Amendment

In {DC} v. Heller (2008), the {US Supreme} Court examined the English Declaration of Rights of 1689, correctly finding that the right to “have arms” in Article VII is the basis of the right enshrined in the Second Amendment.
The Court also correctly recognized that the Second Amendment right to bear arms was an individual right to have and use arms for “self preservation and defense” as in its English predecessor.
However, contrary to discredited scholarship {to wit Joyce Malcolm} upon which Heller relied, the right to “have arms” embodied in the English Declaration of Rights did not intend to protect an individual’s right to possess, own, or use arms for private purposes such as to defend a home against burglars (what, in modern times, we mean when we use the term “self-defense”). Rather, it referred to a right to possess arms in defense of the realm. Accordingly, the right to own or use arms for private purposes is not a right deeply rooted in our nation’s tradition, and should not be incorporated as against the states by the Fourteenth Amendment.

The “have arms” provision in the English Declaration of Rights, which was later codified as the Bill of Rights, provided two protections to the individual.
First, the right to “have arms” gave certain persons (qualified Protestants) the right to possess arms to take part in defending the realm against enemies within (i.e., Catholics) as well as foreign invaders.
Second, the grant of a right to “have arms” was a compromise of a dispute over control of the militia that gave Parliament concurrent power (with the sovereign) over arming the landed gentry. It allowed Parliament to invoke its right of “self-preservation” and “resistance” should the sovereign usurp the laws, liberties, estates, and Protestant religion of the nation.

In no part of his Commentaries does Blackstone link the right of personal security with the possession of arms, nor does he cite the Declaration of Rights’ “have arms” provision in his discussion of personal security.
... In doing so, the Court relied heavily on the scholarship of Joyce Lee Malcolm. The overwhelming consensus among leading English historians, however, is that Malcolm’s work is flawed on this point. ...Amici, based on a wealth of scholarship, disagree with Malcolm’s conclusions. Contrary to Malcolm’s view, the “have arms” provision was the result of a political dispute over whether ultimate control over the militia

The {supreme} Court “throughout its history has freely exercised its power to reexamine the basis of constitutional decisions.” That the Heller decision is recent only weighs in favor of quick action by the Court to correct its error of historical interpretation

Amici Curiae are scholars and professional historians whose collective expertise covers the following areas: the history of Stuart England, the Restoration, the 1689 Glorious Revolution, the American Revolution, the Early Republic, American legal history, American Constitutional history, and Anglo-American history. Each has earned one or more advanced degrees in history, political science and/or law.

Wrong discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2017 #1
um.. mac56 Jan 2017 #6
At the time of ratification sarisataka Jan 2017 #9
As my learned associate sarisataka has explained... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2017 #17
The Democratic party says the 2A supports an individual right to keep and bear arms. hack89 Jan 2017 #2
There is no basis to the popular myth needledriver Jan 2017 #3
You are right...the 2nd did NOT give the people the right to bear arms. jmg257 Jan 2017 #4
+1 Doug.Goodall Jan 2017 #13
errors in your reasoning jimmy the one Jan 2017 #29
Error in your reasoning: yagotme Jan 2017 #38
Never understood why sarisataka Jan 2017 #5
I believe the placement of the comma's yagotme Jan 2017 #7
+1 Doug.Goodall Jan 2017 #14
You overly complicated it in your "translation"... jmg257 Jan 2017 #8
Why does the word "arms" safeinOhio Jan 2017 #10
It doesn't refer only to firearms sarisataka Jan 2017 #11
taking rawle out of context jimmy the one Jan 2017 #30
Thank you for your support sarisataka Jan 2017 #33
sorry sari, wrong era webster's jimmy the one Jan 2017 #42
Cherry picking key words.. sarisataka Jan 2017 #44
It doesn't. Swords pistols accoutrements jmg257 Jan 2017 #12
Aw man. Ya' done opened up a can of worms now. Ya' done blasphemed flamin lib Jan 2017 #15
You mean Democratic Party talking points don't you? hack89 Jan 2017 #16
How many guns do you own, again? Or, shall I say, "cling to"? Marengo Jan 2017 #18
Your awkward question will no doubt go unanswered... friendly_iconoclast Jan 2017 #24
Might have saved yourself the effort. It's settled law now, at least for the foreseeable future. Marengo Jan 2017 #19
I just want to thank everyone for sharing their opinion.........n/t HAB911 Jan 2017 #20
You're welcome discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2017 #21
See post #19. It's a matter of *FACT* -- *not* opinion. NT pablo_marmol Jan 2017 #22
I just want to thank everyone for sharing their opinion.........n/t HAB911 Jan 2017 #23
I think there's an echo in here... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2017 #25
No, the bill of rights "gives" nothing. X_Digger Jan 2017 #26
original wording was for the militia interpretation jimmy the one Jan 2017 #27
I'm really surprised no one has claimed HAB911 Jan 2017 #28
I think Hamilton was 1 of the 1st..the militia is much more of a defensive notion against tyranny jmg257 Jan 2017 #35
LOL, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, HAB911 Jan 2017 #36
You'll have to find someone who said it did. This is Hamilton's quote. jmg257 Jan 2017 #37
See: yagotme Jan 2017 #39
LOL!...........n/t HAB911 Jan 2017 #41
british scholars weighed in, after heller jimmy the one Jan 2017 #31
story & oliver support the militia view jimmy the one Jan 2017 #32
"probably" sarisataka Jan 2017 #34
They don't count. yagotme Jan 2017 #40
another sorry attempt re founding father quotes on 2ndA jimmy the one Jan 2017 #43
In all of your extended quotes sarisataka Jan 2017 #45
In your quote below, yagotme Jan 2017 #46
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