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tortoise1956

(671 posts)
36. Speaking of mythology...
Mon Apr 30, 2018, 02:33 AM
Apr 2018

I see J1 is back spinning tales from his fertile imagination. Let me see if I can address at least some of his flights of fancy:

First of all, he keeps trying to differentiate between “British” and “colonists”. The fact is that most of the colonists considered themselves to be loyal British subjects, and as such, expected to be allowed to enjoy the rights of British subjects. That included the right of all loyal Protestant subjects to bear arms for their defense.

I can't lay my hands on the post, but J1 himself actually (accidentally, I think) provided a link one time to a British source that confirmed that, although the right to bear arms in pre-revolutionary war England was limited, it was indeed an individual right. In lieu of that, here is a BBC story that talks about guns in Britain over the years... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7056245.stm

In 1767, Mr. Gerard Hamilton, a member of Parliament who opposed taxing the colonies and indeed thought that the taxes were impermissible under English law, wrote in a letter that”there are, in the different provinces, about a million of people, of which we may suppose at least 200,000 men able to bear arms,: and not able to bear arms, but having arms in their possession, unrestrained by any iniquitous game act. In the Massachusetts government particularly, there is an express law, by which every man is obliged to have a musket, a pound of powder, and a pound of bullets always by him:” quite a few more muskets than he would have you believe...

https://books.google.com/books?id=sADdt5lUSsoC&pg=PA203&lpg=PA203&dq=william+gerard+hamilton+to+gerard+calcraft+letter+armes+in+the+house&source=bl&ots=SvxHxqFvLd&sig=lzw3gWXFov6i7pTKMUoT6hrpAys&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwissI38oOHaAhWHrFkKHbCFBKIQ6AEIRzAE#v=onepage&q=william%20gerard%20hamilton%20to%20gerard%20calcraft%20letter%20armes%20in%20the%20house&f=false p. 203

The British sent troops to America in 1768, led by General Thomas Gage. This was in response to colonial proclamations denouncing the taxes that were being levied on the colonies. These proclamations were considered by the King to be disloyal, in a speech November 8, 1768 at the opening of Parliament.

In 1774, after the Boston Tea Party, the first of the Intolerable Acts referenced in the Declaration of Independence were passed. Among them was an act that gave the governor absolute authority over all judicial and official appointments and removals, as well as appointing sheriffs who then selected all jurors. Gage was appointed Governor of the Massachusetts Bay colony, and told to use his troops as necessary to quell the unrest.

Gage's first effort to disarm the colony came when he began to restrict withdrawals from the local powder houses, where gunpowder that had been imported was stored until merchants and provincial authorities made their withdrawals, without his express order. He rescinded this order after a couple of incidents that were publicized in the local papers.

On September 1, 1774, Gage decided to seize all remaining powder in a powder-house on Quarry Hill. He had been informed by a brigadier general (Brattle), that all powder left in another powder-house in Charlestown was the King's property because all private powder had been removed, and his intention was to ensure that no more British gunpowder fell into the colonists hands. He then began once again to restrict any withdrawals of ANY gunpowder, private or public, from the powder-houses. When the colonists aired their complaints in the Suffolk Resolutions, Gage wrote to Lord Dartmouth (the instigator of much of the unjust actions that led to war) that he thought it prudent to prevent the withdrawal of any powder at all, no matter who it belonged to. He also instituted search and seizure operations at the main entrance to Boston, impounding all firearms and associated material (bullets and powder) that were found.

On October 19, 1774, the King and his ministers put in place a 6-month ban on exporting arms and ammunition from Great Britain, and importing arms or ammunition into the colonies. (That would fall under the heading of disarmament, wouldn't it?) However, the Dutch, who always enjoyed tweaking the nose of the British, cheerfully set about bypassing the ban and providing aid to the colonies, with some success. (This ban was extended for another 6 months in April 1775, but of course by then open hostilities had begun) As a direct response to the knowledge of the ban reaching the colonies, an armed colonial force overran a British fort at Portsmouth and confiscated all arms and ammunition.

The arms storage at Concord was NOT British property. It had been amassed by rebel forces at several farmhouses in the area. Gage had been told by a spy that there were 4 brass cannon there, which were almost certainly ones that had been stolen from the British months earlier. When Gage heard this, he directed a force of 700 men to go to Concord and seize and destroy the rebel caches, and specifically to spike any brass cannon they came across. He also provided a map containing the locations of all houses, barns, etc., where the material was stored. This expedition, of course, led to “the shot heard round the world”. And as far as I can find out, there is no evidence that the brass cannon were ever at Concord.

One quick note – firearms were much more common than J1 would have you believe. According to the study at the link below based on probate records:

http://scholarship.law.wm.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1489&context=wmlr

more than half of all probate records of the time showed guns as part of the estate. They were more common in well-to-do inventories than in poorer ones, of course,but there were present even there. This correlates with the militia requirements that the colonies levied on able-bodied men to be able to show up armed and equipped to defend the community.

As for long rifles, there were at least ten companies of sharpshooters formed at the beginning of the war. These consisted of frontiersmen who had spent their entire lives perfecting the art of shooting accurately to protect themselves and provide for their families. These sharpshooters had been used with great effect during the French and Indian wars. Their main limitation was the time required to reload, which was one of the reasons that they obsessed over hitting their target with the first shot - because the chances of reloading and getting a second shot at the same target were vanishingly small.

The first company that joined Washington's army immediately made their presence known by picking off key British personnel at ranges up to and sometimes exceeding 200 yards with regularity. This led the British to accuse the Americans of being bad sports, since this simply wasn't done...

I think that about covers it. I'll stand by for more Fractured Fairy Tales...

Recommendations

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A question for this group-- [View all] digonswine Apr 2018 OP
And if you do carry "ready to go", as it were, why? guillaumeb Apr 2018 #1
well it depends The Polack MSgt Apr 2018 #2
Yeah -I know double-action digonswine Apr 2018 #3
even though i dont have guns , i was trained this way too. AllaN01Bear May 2018 #76
First, I understand busy, no need to reply at all to me discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2018 #4
that's reasonable- digonswine Apr 2018 #5
Cool I just haven't seen you around in this group much discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2018 #6
OK-maybe not control- digonswine Apr 2018 #11
I say control is myth because... discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2018 #24
By "control"-I was referring to a person's feeling of being personally in control-- digonswine Apr 2018 #29
Like many Democrats, you are logical and respectful discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2018 #33
I can't say I agree with your idea of personal freedom- digonswine May 2018 #56
re: trust and personal freedom discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2018 #58
A few things- digonswine May 2018 #61
A few more things. Straw Man May 2018 #62
One at a time- digonswine May 2018 #66
I think responding to you is most likely a waste of time- digonswine May 2018 #82
If it's such a waste of time, ... Straw Man May 2018 #87
I missed that I responded previously-time went by and I am a busy feller- digonswine May 2018 #90
replies on select if not most points discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2018 #63
I did not see this post- digonswine May 2018 #74
I know teachers take a lot of work home discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2018 #75
I don't want you to get the idea that... discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2018 #81
Hi-- digonswine May 2018 #83
Hi back at you discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2018 #88
I did have a great holiday--thanks digonswine May 2018 #89
re: "School is a safe place..." discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2018 #91
It's silly to take the founding fathers' ideas as perfect for today's problems- digonswine Jun 2018 #93
I promise to elaborate but also please check out #92 discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2018 #94
I think I covered most of your issues and questions... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2018 #95
You have been reasonable in discussion, which I appreciate, of course-- digonswine Jun 2018 #96
re: I have had enough of it and am probably done discussing it(maybe). discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2018 #97
Responses to a few discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2018 #92
Why are there no warnings on guns that say you are more likely to be killed with a gun when you poss gejohnston May 2018 #64
Scientific American says different-- digonswine May 2018 #67
false delima gejohnston May 2018 #68
I can't agree- digonswine May 2018 #69
if it is locked to the outside, gejohnston May 2018 #70
I will reply in order of your responses- digonswine May 2018 #73
just a few things gejohnston May 2018 #78
There is no perfect response to a situation of an active shooter- digonswine May 2018 #79
If I might interject... discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2018 #71
You might- digonswine May 2018 #72
Take a look at this, oneshooter May 2018 #77
Before I retired I lived in a fairly bad section in the Tampa Bay Area. ... spin Apr 2018 #26
Every gun model that's designed for duty use or concealed carry HeartachesNhangovers Apr 2018 #7
It would seem to me that that is not terribly safe- digonswine Apr 2018 #9
If you are worried about a revolver discharging if dropped oneshooter Apr 2018 #17
I am not terribly worried about a dropped revolver-- digonswine May 2018 #85
I carry a gejohnston Apr 2018 #8
Please see my post (#9) digonswine Apr 2018 #10
About 8-10 pounds gejohnston Apr 2018 #14
The "New York trigger" for a Glock is 12lb. oneshooter Apr 2018 #18
Viral videos. Straw Man Apr 2018 #31
If I am carrying something sarisataka Apr 2018 #12
Well- digonswine Apr 2018 #13
I have not seen a lot sarisataka Apr 2018 #16
Hey, welcome to your own opinion! tortoise1956 Apr 2018 #23
2nd amendment mythology excerpt jimmy the one Apr 2018 #34
Speaking of mythology... tortoise1956 Apr 2018 #36
Carrying for self-defense generally means being able to draw and shoot quickly. krispos42 Apr 2018 #15
So-- digonswine Apr 2018 #21
Responsible people keep guns in this state only when... krispos42 Apr 2018 #27
I still can't see- digonswine Apr 2018 #28
There's a big difference ... Straw Man Apr 2018 #30
The question would seem to be "safe from what?" krispos42 Apr 2018 #35
I think the main reason that safeties on handguns HeartachesNhangovers Apr 2018 #19
I haven't carried in years, but when I did... aikoaiko Apr 2018 #20
I carry occasionally... tortoise1956 Apr 2018 #22
(redirected) British 'have arms' decrees jimmy the one Apr 2018 #37
"...the right to "have arms" embodied in the English Declaration of Rights... discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2018 #40
Scalia cited Ben Oliver in heller jimmy the one Apr 2018 #41
And in that regard: discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2018 #43
Earth to J1... tortoise1956 Apr 2018 #42
jto checkmates the pretzel logic jimmy the one May 2018 #50
redirected #2, prevention not disarmament jimmy the one Apr 2018 #38
Disarmament tortoise1956 Apr 2018 #44
arms embargoes jimmy the one May 2018 #47
redirected #3, Fort Pownal, Maine jimmy the one Apr 2018 #39
WTF are you talking about? tortoise1956 Apr 2018 #45
Ports mouth, common harbor jimmy the one Apr 2018 #46
And again with the calumnies... tortoise1956 May 2018 #49
how to lodge a complaint jimmy the one May 2018 #59
more contradictions jimmy the one May 2018 #60
correction on fort pownal jimmy the one May 2018 #51
I legally carry a snub nosed revolver. ... spin Apr 2018 #25
dig on spot on jimmy the one Apr 2018 #32
Correlation. Straw Man May 2018 #48
That last paragraph looks like crap. krispos42 May 2018 #65
fair points jimmy the one May 2018 #80
Most semi auto Timewas May 2018 #52
Neither do many that OC discntnt_irny_srcsm May 2018 #53
Glocks are safer than you say Alea May 2018 #54
Everyone Timewas May 2018 #55
Glocks just don't feel right in my hand. n/t oneshooter May 2018 #57
re you saying there should be limits regarding who carries what? Sure seems that way. digonswine May 2018 #84
Not at all Timewas May 2018 #86
I don't carry very frequently kudzu22 Jun 2018 #98
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