Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

jimmy the one

(2,717 posts)
26. 12 justices for militia, 5 for individual
Sat Aug 21, 2021, 04:30 PM
Aug 2021

K: .. tying gun ownership to militia service despite the fact that the text of the amendment CLEARLY says the opposite.

Clearly? If the meaning had been clear, there would've been no debate the past 200 years.
If meaning were 'clear', why did the 1939 supreme court put this in the Miller decision, which was unanimous 8-0, for the militia interpreation:
... "In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than 18 in in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment, or that its use could contribute to the common defense.
.... With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such {militia} forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=210877

The 1938 Dept of Justice cited Adams in amicus brief to the 1938/39 supreme court: The second amendment to the Constitution, providing, "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed," has no application to this act. The Constitution does not grant the privilege to racketeers and desperadoes to carry weapons of the character dealt with in the act. It refers to the militia, a protective force of government; to the collective body and not individual rights. https://guncite.com/miller-brief.htm

So far the relevant supreme court justices have ruled 12 - 5 for the militia interpretation.

K: There are exactly three entities in the 2nd Amendment text: the (well-regulated) Militia, the States, and the People, and only one of them has the right to keep and bear arms.

Sure, the people whlle in militia duty have that right, and congress cannot infringe on that right.
Glad to see you agree that 'state' refers to the 13 states (then), rather than the 'State' writ large, as in the nation. Which gun gurus support that hypothesis? I know there's a few.

K: The unorganized militia is exactly as regulated as Congress requires it to be.

Laissez faire policy is not regulation; the unorganized militia is not regulated, it is unorganized.

K: Saying the 2nd Amendment is about "giving" states the right to have armed forces is simply incorrect.

True but specious; the 2ndA gives people the right to bear arms while in a well regulated militia, which congress cannot infringe upon.
At least that was the original intent.
Today there is NO well regulated citizens militia, and THAT entity is what IS CLEARLY written in the 2nd amendment, and described in detail 5 months later in the militia act of 1792. The unorganized militia developed circa 1830 due to scofflaws wanting to shirk their militia duty and claim they (some) had an individual rkba.

The only "well regulated militia" [View all] safeinOhio Jan 2021 OP
Disagree; we the people, all of us, need to be ready to defend our country. LongtimeAZDem Jan 2021 #1
Then they all need safeinOhio Jan 2021 #2
"Well regulated" as intended, means that every citizen is trained, equipped, and prepared LongtimeAZDem Jan 2021 #3
When written it didn't mean women. safeinOhio Jan 2021 #4
Quibble all you want. If January 6 didn't wake you up, I won't argue with you. LongtimeAZDem Jan 2021 #5
Because the NG is regulated, they can be cleaned up. safeinOhio Jan 2021 #7
Unless, of course, that the states pass something yagotme Feb 2021 #17
Of course. needledriver Jan 2021 #6
10 United States Code section 246... krispos42 Jan 2021 #8
Sounds like the old draft. safeinOhio Jan 2021 #9
Unorganized Militia? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha jimmy the one Aug 2021 #22
Nice try krispos42 Aug 2021 #24
There's this saying about repeating a lie. discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2021 #25
12 justices for militia, 5 for individual jimmy the one Aug 2021 #26
Huh, well since there have been no SCOTUS decisions on this issue, I guess you're... wait a minute! krispos42 Aug 2021 #27
gun control side won last 7 of 8 presidential elections jimmy the one Aug 2021 #30
That's YOUR interpretation of original intent... krispos42 Aug 2021 #31
gun control makes marginal improvements jimmy the one Aug 2021 #32
At the expence of substantial setbacks elswhere. krispos42 Aug 2021 #33
Gun ownership charts, gss, gallup jimmy the one Aug 2021 #34
It's probably the deterioration of telephone polling krispos42 Aug 2021 #35
cruikshank; maybe 21 militia, 5 individual jimmy the one Aug 2021 #28
There's not much point in arguing about it ... HeartachesNhangovers Jan 2021 #10
So? Gun ownership is not linked to militia service hack89 Jan 2021 #11
The antigun (like all true believers, of any sort), have their 'articles of faith'- or... friendly_iconoclast Jan 2021 #12
So now that trump's gone, that "well regulated militia" thing comes back into play. Paladin Jan 2021 #13
"You gun rights people sure were quiet..." About what? What do *you* think ought to have been said? friendly_iconoclast Jan 2021 #14
You've dodged the question before: friendly_iconoclast Jan 2021 #15
First, it's against DU rules to advocate for violence against the government krispos42 Feb 2021 #18
I'm proud to call my self a liberal...AND a gun owner. Rick Rolle Feb 2021 #19
I'm a liberal gun owner, myself. Paladin Feb 2021 #20
maybe 90 million gun owners jimmy the one Aug 2021 #23
Fortunately gun ownership is an individual right independent of militia service. Nt hack89 Feb 2021 #16
Both I, and the SCOTUS, agree with you. Rick Rolle Feb 2021 #21
I'll admit that the National Guard is more "well-regulated" than the unorganized militia... SYFROYH Aug 2021 #29
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Gun Control & RKBA»The only "well regulated ...»Reply #26