Religion

guillaumeb

(42,649 posts)

205. My interpretation of the phrase "allow human suffering" is that

Tue Sep 25, 2018, 11:53 AM

Sep 2018

it refers to free will. It does not, in my view, imply that the Creator wants suffering, or approves of suffering, but that free will might lead to choices that cause suffering.

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Why Does Allah Allow Human Suffering? For What Purpose? [View all] guillaumeb Sep 2018 OP

Have you ever found a good answer? Cartoonist Sep 2018 #1

2 things: guillaumeb Sep 2018 #2

I guess god forgot Cartoonist Sep 2018 #3

I fail to see the logic behind your response. eom guillaumeb Sep 2018 #4

If not omnipresent then not God. A Demi-God for Earth? Fred Sanders Sep 2018 #6

Please prove #2. trotsky Sep 2018 #8

If you look at replies 1 and 2, guillaumeb Sep 2018 #9

A terrible answer Loki Liesmith Sep 2018 #126

No, it is my answer. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #149

My answer is simple. Igel Sep 2018 #96

But you didn't create the universe or the human condition marylandblue Sep 2018 #97

It seems that Allah grants free will to hurricanes as well. Towlie Sep 2018 #5

A natural weather occurence. eom guillaumeb Sep 2018 #15

Straw man plus begging the question. trotsky Sep 2018 #7

I am certain that the author would be devastated by your response. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #10

Ah yes, everyone is just too stupid to understand the brilliant logic. trotsky Sep 2018 #11

I did not say that you were/are stupid. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #13

Then explain it. trotsky Sep 2018 #16

What the author said: guillaumeb Sep 2018 #17

No we don't Cartoonist Sep 2018 #18

And do you agree that you and I do not know the whoe of reality? guillaumeb Sep 2018 #24

I agree Cartoonist Sep 2018 #48

Speaking of making a fool of oneself, guillaumeb Sep 2018 #55

Who is they? Cartoonist Sep 2018 #62

Again, so insightful. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #64

"What you see as reality is limited." trotsky Sep 2018 #21

Ah yes, the old, tired and worn out, "god works in mysterious ways" excuse Major Nikon Sep 2018 #142

He is correct about the author's presumption marylandblue Sep 2018 #58

The author has faith. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #60

I consider lack of evidence to be "evidence" but perhaps not absolute proof marylandblue Sep 2018 #65

Or, it shows that the search started from false premises. eom guillaumeb Sep 2018 #69

What would be the correct premise to begin the search for God? marylandblue Sep 2018 #73

Faith. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #76

Sounds like a good starting point for comfirmation bias marylandblue Sep 2018 #85

Agreed. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #86

If there is no evidence for God, then the most likely conclusion marylandblue Sep 2018 #87

So you just have to decide that there is a god? Lordquinton Sep 2018 #108

In each case, for each position, guillaumeb Sep 2018 #112

What else do you accept without evidence? marylandblue Sep 2018 #117

There is no evidence phlogiston exists marylandblue Sep 2018 #121

The Phlogiston Theory is a wonderful example of science working MineralMan Sep 2018 #122

Speaking of framing Lordquinton Sep 2018 #107

I have previously given my position on faith, and that no evidence is needed. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #111

Using Lordquinton's translation stated elsewhere marylandblue Sep 2018 #119

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence Major Nikon Sep 2018 #143

Hitchens made many good points when he confined himself to politics. eom guillaumeb Sep 2018 #150

Meanwhile you are making many poor fallacies Major Nikon Sep 2018 #152

If you could qazplm135 Sep 2018 #37

Nope. trotsky Sep 2018 #41

Lol qazplm135 Sep 2018 #66

And yet the clear and wholly unoriginal thesis Voltaire2 Sep 2018 #74

and what was my response qazplm135 Sep 2018 #89

This. Voltaire2 Sep 2018 #92

What's the all caps word there qazplm135 Sep 2018 #93

Perhaps you forgot that the op was referring Voltaire2 Sep 2018 #94

ffs qazplm135 Sep 2018 #123

Converting, are you, guillaumeb? MineralMan Sep 2018 #12

You believe that Epicurus was correct. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #14

You cannot say what I believe, guillaumeb, nor when MineralMan Sep 2018 #20

Speaking of blind arrogance..... guillaumeb Sep 2018 #23

When you presume to tell others what they think or believe, MineralMan Sep 2018 #25

And my point was on confirmation bias. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #26

I realize that you have convinced yourself of that. MineralMan Sep 2018 #27

"Allah" doesn't allow anything... NeoGreen Sep 2018 #19

The Creator understands. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #22

And the understanding is all still of no greater effect in reality than... NeoGreen Sep 2018 #28

Do you understand all of reality? guillaumeb Sep 2018 #29

(nt) NeoGreen Sep 2018 #30

your limitations make it impossible qazplm135 Sep 2018 #39

The Creator cannot exist outside of the reality that is a creation of the Creator. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #40

Flimflam. MineralMan Sep 2018 #43

Your new favorite term? guillaumeb Sep 2018 #49

Actually, a Creator cannot exist within the reality that is its creation. MineralMan Sep 2018 #45

Follow your own advice. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #50

Nonsensical qazplm135 Sep 2018 #68

Your determination of the limits of the Creator. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #71

No the basic definition of what a god is supposed to be qazplm135 Sep 2018 #72

Since when? Lordquinton Sep 2018 #110

2 different concepts. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #114

This sounds very traditionally Christian in a way. marylandblue Sep 2018 #118

The Word becomes flesh every time someone accepts the Word. eom guillaumeb Sep 2018 #148

So your answer is that you get to have it both ways? Lordquinton Sep 2018 #125

Do you understand any of reality. MineralMan Sep 2018 #44

2 wholly unsupported claims. n/t trotsky Sep 2018 #31

Excellent counting skills. eom guillaumeb Sep 2018 #32

Offsets your pitiful argumentation skills, I guess. n/t trotsky Sep 2018 #33

Notice that I made no comment on your argumentation ability. eom guillaumeb Sep 2018 #34

Yes, I realize that, because you acknowledge its superiority by being unable to respond. trotsky Sep 2018 #35

I understand. eom guillaumeb Sep 2018 #36

Thanks for agreeing with me! n/t trotsky Sep 2018 #38

Clearly, you do not. nt MineralMan Sep 2018 #46

So you disagree with trotsky? guillaumeb Sep 2018 #51

My reply was to you, not anyone else. MineralMan Sep 2018 #95

Haven't you claimed Mariana Sep 2018 #81

Many here understand that this is my opinion. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #82

How can you even have an opinion Mariana Sep 2018 #83

How can some have an opinion that the Creator does not exist? guillaumeb Sep 2018 #84

Gil, you don't just posit some creator might exist. Mariana Sep 2018 #88

I assumed that you recognized that my opinion posts are just my personal view. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #98

Did you just make up your personal views Mariana Sep 2018 #103

We all approach faith as individuals. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #106

Allah, Yahweh, Zeus allow nothing. MineralMan Sep 2018 #42

Thus it is definitively decided. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #53

.. MineralMan Sep 2018 #56

Always your best response. eom guillaumeb Sep 2018 #57

Often, it's all I need. MineralMan Sep 2018 #63

This theodicy rests on a logic error marylandblue Sep 2018 #47

Your error is presuming that you understand the reason for the Creator's actions. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #52

I don't assume anything other than the usual definition of God marylandblue Sep 2018 #54

If a human being cannot make an informed judgement of reality, then why are we supposed to trust it? DetlefK Sep 2018 #59

Any human believes in a god because of faith. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #61

Is human faith fallible or infallible? DetlefK Sep 2018 #67

Nothing human can be infallible. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #70

Then faith is irrelevant for the question whether God exists. DetlefK Sep 2018 #75

No, faith is the belief in the Creator. eom guillaumeb Sep 2018 #77

But you just said that it's fallible. That means, it's unreliable. DetlefK Sep 2018 #91

Faith requires belief. Any statement of faith represents a statement of belief. eom guillaumeb Sep 2018 #99

What are your definitions of "faith" and "belief"? DetlefK Sep 2018 #100

My faith in this area refers to my belief that the Creator created what we guillaumeb Sep 2018 #104

I don't ask what your faith and your belief are. What are your definitions of "faith" and "belief"? DetlefK Sep 2018 #116

Faith has been defined as the willing suspension of disbelief. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #147

Willing? Little children are indoctrinated to have faith Mariana Sep 2018 #159

Are little children indoctrinated into believing in patriotism? guillaumeb Sep 2018 #178

Yes, and that isn't voluntary either. It is forced upon them. nt. Mariana Sep 2018 #181

This is also the definition of enjoying science fiction marylandblue Sep 2018 #162

Now we're getting somewhere. DetlefK Sep 2018 #170

Faith is the foundation for religion. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #179

So what? It's not my fault that religion is full of philosophical errors! DetlefK Sep 2018 #182

Religion takes many forms. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #183

This is not about people. This is about faith. DetlefK Sep 2018 #185

He won't answer, because faith isn't an argument marylandblue Sep 2018 #186

Faith and belief are dependent on each other. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #189

Stop digging. You are only making it worse. DetlefK Sep 2018 #195

Do you only have provable beliefs? eom guillaumeb Sep 2018 #202

The point is, how willing are we to defend that which cannot be defended? DetlefK Sep 2018 #203

Allah is the same Abrahamic god worshipped by Christians. If you believe the OT, he actively ... malchickiwick Sep 2018 #78

Some Christians deny that Allah is the same as the god of the Bible. eom guillaumeb Sep 2018 #79

*Historically illiterate Christians deny that Allah is the same as the god of the Bible. eom malchickiwick Sep 2018 #80

Agreed. eom guillaumeb Sep 2018 #175

Some Christians also deny that Jesus is the same as the god of the bible Major Nikon Sep 2018 #153

Drivel. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2018 #90

Free will. underpants Sep 2018 #101

Free Willy! True Dough Sep 2018 #102

Yes. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #105

Is human suffering always contingent upon the free action of other humans? Act_of_Reparation Sep 2018 #134

How insightful of you. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #177

Not really. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2018 #180

It is entirely likely then that you don't know any humans. Voltaire2 Sep 2018 #164

You ask an interesting question. TomSlick Sep 2018 #109

Agreed. An excellent repsonse. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #113

I regret there is no place to discuss religion on DU. TomSlick Sep 2018 #115

Here is the Statement of Purpose for the Religion Group: MineralMan Sep 2018 #120

Correct. TomSlick Sep 2018 #128

I do not recall anyone saying anything like that to you. MineralMan Sep 2018 #130

We agree. TomSlick Sep 2018 #131

Religion is a topic that is open for debate. MineralMan Sep 2018 #132

Wow. Fascinating. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2018 #145

Illustrating one of the poster's points. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #146

Uh-huh. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2018 #154

His point was that cluelessness gets mocked? Voltaire2 Sep 2018 #155

This is you illustrating my observation of the 11th Commandment. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #176

You really should back up your statement. Mariana Sep 2018 #160

You'll never get one. trotsky Sep 2018 #200

Well, it isn't working, apparently. MineralMan Sep 2018 #201

Yes, there is some harsh rhetoric and ridicule in that regard marylandblue Sep 2018 #124

People break the rules here and they get dealt with Voltaire2 Sep 2018 #156

I think criticism on this site goes beyond "outspoken" marylandblue Sep 2018 #157

Do you think that there have been any attemps Voltaire2 Sep 2018 #158

Yes there is that one poster, but I've seen harsh rhetoric directed at others marylandblue Sep 2018 #161

Like this current subthread where a religionist Voltaire2 Sep 2018 #163

I didn't see any harshness and I didn't see him say we were wrecking DU marylandblue Sep 2018 #166

He's said several demonstrably false things in this thread. Mariana Sep 2018 #167

I got the sense he was offering an impressionistic viewpoint rather than any direct quote marylandblue Sep 2018 #168

That is not what he was squawking about. Mariana Sep 2018 #174

People don't distinguish between attacking their cherished ideas and attacking people marylandblue Sep 2018 #184

He wants what most people lurking the internet want. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2018 #187

I hate people marylandblue Sep 2018 #188

Tom said: Mariana Sep 2018 #190

Ok I concede that point. marylandblue Sep 2018 #191

That is false. There is such a place. Mariana Sep 2018 #133

Of course, nobody has posted there since April. MineralMan Sep 2018 #135

I was just correcting TomSlick's false statement Mariana Sep 2018 #137

Some people like a fight, I guess. MineralMan Sep 2018 #140

Same reason humans don't save every bug, or animal from pain and suffering. We are just so Pisces Sep 2018 #127

Some do have that as a goal. MineralMan Sep 2018 #129

This is true, but a very small percentage of religions or mankind as a whole. It is the arrogance of Pisces Sep 2018 #136

I call foul... NeoGreen Sep 2018 #138

Thanks for supplying the numbers. MineralMan Sep 2018 #141

I would, humbly, suggest that the author of post #136... NeoGreen Sep 2018 #151

Very few actively practice harm avoidance. Voltaire2 Sep 2018 #165

That is true, but the principle still exists. MineralMan Sep 2018 #173

Reading stuff like this... Act_of_Reparation Sep 2018 #144

Why? marylandblue Sep 2018 #169

You don't find anything disquieting... Act_of_Reparation Sep 2018 #171

No, I find it metaphorical for the physical universe marylandblue Sep 2018 #172

Why do some people have to experience so much more pain than others? trotsky Sep 2018 #139

Why are some people taller than others? guillaumeb Sep 2018 #193

Random variation and natural selection marylandblue Sep 2018 #194

Genetics. trotsky Sep 2018 #196

We both know he won't. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2018 #197

It's his standard propaganda technique - whataboutism. trotsky Sep 2018 #198

Performance art. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2018 #199

An interesting response. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #192

I don't know why but the effects of suffering are like a gamble. gtar100 Sep 2018 #204

My interpretation of the phrase "allow human suffering" is that guillaumeb Sep 2018 #205

What free will human decision causes earthquakes? marylandblue Sep 2018 #206

Is that the best response you could think of? eom guillaumeb Sep 2018 #207

That was a question, not a response. Do you have an answer? marylandblue Sep 2018 #208

I was serious. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #209

That was my question to you. marylandblue Sep 2018 #210

The commonality is suffering. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #211

The causal mechanisms are different marylandblue Sep 2018 #212

Of course. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #213

Human actors have free will to cause pain to otherhuman actors marylandblue Sep 2018 #214

Human actors have the ability, and the will. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #216

The Creator doesn't have free will? marylandblue Sep 2018 #218

The Creator created, and free will exists in sentient beings. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #219

That doesn't answer the question marylandblue Sep 2018 #220

Now your questions seem designed to avoid dialogue. eom guillaumeb Sep 2018 #221

Not at all. I asked if the Creator has free will. marylandblue Sep 2018 #222

The Creator created. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #223

Sure. marylandblue Sep 2018 #224

Prove that you have free will. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #225

Definition: Free will is the ability to make a choice with no external forces controlling you marylandblue Sep 2018 #226

And does your entire life experience influence your decisions? guillaumeb Sep 2018 #230

Free will isn't 100%, it can be influenced modified etc. marylandblue Sep 2018 #231

No, there is no issue. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #233

The issue is that the Creator created a world with suffering and death marylandblue Sep 2018 #234

Overcrowding? guillaumeb Sep 2018 #235

Omnipotent, remember? marylandblue Sep 2018 #236

No death, no illness, guillaumeb Sep 2018 #237

Not no physical laws. Different laws. marylandblue Sep 2018 #238

Prove ANY ONE of the many statements you have made about your creator. trotsky Sep 2018 #228

Exactly. And that implies (to me) conditions in which we can grow in knowledge through experiences. gtar100 Sep 2018 #215

A very nice reply. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #217

Why do you post these questions and then get dismissive and irritated with the responses? tymorial Sep 2018 #227

I am not looking for conversion. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #229

Who knows why Gil does what he does? Mariana Sep 2018 #232