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Igel

(36,010 posts)
15. Not a lot about Herod Antipas.
Mon Apr 22, 2019, 04:15 PM
Apr 2019

Few doubt he existed, and most of those without doubts dwell on numismatic evidence. They didn't even know where his tomb was. It was recently found, but then some issued official expressions of doubt.

They look at things like, oh, Flavius J. and even gospel accounts. But there were other historians.

Palestina was a backwater. It was poor. It was the home of a hated ethnic group that did little but give Rome problems and which, in return for not giving it more problems, had a special dispensation *not* to be forced to give sacrifice to Caesar as god. Even with all that, there were still movements to drive out Rome. The sicarii--which may have roots in 20s and 30s AD, but may have originated a decade or two later--did not produce friends.

Palestina had public works and Roman-built-and-planned cities--Capernaum, for instance--but those were for wealthier Jews and for Romans (or at least non-Jews).

As for texts being important things, more than a few researchers suspect that various gospel accounts go back to lists of sayings of Jesus that *were* extant as early as 60 AD and must be older. It's unclear that Paul saw or had any, but that's an argument from silence. They were rendered unnecessary when the edited compendia came out. (In this, it rather resembles the lists of Muhammed texts that Uthman allegedly pulled together to make the Qur'an--if he even was the one to pull it together; note that the lists themselves don't survive for all their awesome awesomeness. It's also worth noting that the first accounts of Muhammad's life date to a century or so after his death, and the time depth of Jesus versus Muhammed's accounts would be about 2000 versus 1400 years.) For all the record keeping, there's no contemporaneous mention of Muhammed or of his mighty military campaigns. (And one can make the argument that if Muhammed existed, he borrowed a lot from pre-existing sources, and that might have been because he saw scattered tribes confronted with two more prosperous or politically better connected groups, Jews and ar-Ruum, both united by a book with a strong prophet at the center of each, each group united by their book and prophet. I mean, how humiliating is *that* comparison? Ahem.)

Not only was Jerusalem destroyed and the territory of Palestina pretty much laid waste during the period when Xianity was still mostly a Jewish "thang", but even then the Xians that were there weren't much appreciated. They may have hung out in the synagogues and done the mandatory rituals, but I doubt that the synagogue leaders were highly appreciative. Note that the Academy set up at Jaffa undoubtedly had a lot of writings, but all that remains are the Tosefta and Mishnah, with the Palestinian Talmud's underlying sources largely gone, Temple and synagogue records erased from history. There were more scrolls and writings than just those, to be sure, but that's it for the strain of Judaism that became Rabbinic Judaism. As for other sects, the Sadducees and the Essenes (etc.), they're gone. It wasn't until the scrolls at Qumran were found that they were known from anything more than a general reference in Flavius J. (and even now the identification is sort of by default, not because of a scroll that said, "We, the Essenes, believe ...) Making it harder, within a century or two the dominant strain of Xianity was gentile and the roots shifted from Torah-observant to pre-Catholic/Orthodox, and the original bearers of the Jesus-sayings lists would have been considered old-school heretical.

The earliest bits of the OT were in Greek from the 2nd century BCE. Want more, until the Qumran texts you'd have to look years after the destruction of Jerusalem. The Old Syriac is older than the earliest most Hebrew texts. Yet there's as much textual evidence for the Tanakh from 560 BCE or so as there is for the Qur'an before the early-mid 700s, and given other finds it's likely that at least portions are hundreds of years earlier. The textual history of the NT is similar--first bits are early 2nd century, but it's still likely Paul's epistles really are mostly Paul's, and before 70 AD.

In other words, your conclusion's like the filling in a Czech buchta: You bite into and are surprised discover it, even though it was baked into the bun by the baker.

I can see how one family escaped the record keeping at that time packman Apr 2019 #1
Yeah. You'd think that the drowning of the Egyptian army MineralMan Apr 2019 #2
Embarrassments weren't recorded. Igel Apr 2019 #7
Not only did they leave Egypt without any written record... Major Nikon Apr 2019 #16
An explanation that I have heard is The Genealogist Apr 2019 #37
Same reason there's no contemporaneous accounts of Brian McGillicuddy of Pigsknuckle, Arksansas. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2019 #3
Not even a baptismal certificate or family bible entry? MineralMan Apr 2019 #4
Annoying is probably the best guess. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2019 #6
What do you mean? There are several Clash City Rocker Apr 2019 #5
Contemporaneous sources. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2019 #8
It said contemporaneous and your source is not legitimate Bradshaw3 Apr 2019 #9
Not one of those is contemporaneous. MineralMan Apr 2019 #12
Only one of those is considered to be of Voltaire2 Apr 2019 #17
Because the Devil didn't want you to know of his great achievements. 3Hotdogs Apr 2019 #10
You do have to remember that Jerusalem was destroyed exboyfil Apr 2019 #11
Oral tradition is not verifiable. MineralMan Apr 2019 #13
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again Cartoonist Apr 2019 #14
Not a lot about Herod Antipas. Igel Apr 2019 #15
Not really a convincing scenario, for either MineralMan Apr 2019 #18
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. kwassa Apr 2019 #21
He also said edhopper Apr 2019 #22
Absence of evidence is evidence of nothing. MineralMan Apr 2019 #23
Although abscence of evidence of something where... uriel1972 Apr 2019 #24
Absence of evidence is proof of nothing else. kwassa Apr 2019 #25
Actually absense of evidence can be evidence of absense edhopper Apr 2019 #30
Um Judea was an important trade area... uriel1972 Apr 2019 #39
Perhaps not all cheap coins locally-minted under Roman authority had faces struggle4progress Apr 2019 #40
Pizza! Pizza! Pandoris Apr 2019 #19
It would mean that Cleopatra was Mary. Pandoris Apr 2019 #20
Nothin' from nothin' leaves nothin' JenniferJuniper Apr 2019 #26
Jesus is as real as Mary being a virgin at the time of his birth n/t itsrobert Apr 2019 #27
Also curious lordsummerisle Apr 2019 #28
Herods slaughter of the innocents Buzz cook Apr 2019 #29
Funny how testy some Christians get when this comes up. trotsky Apr 2019 #31
The truth has very sharp teeth and bites HARD. MineralMan Apr 2019 #32
I just find it interesting when you press for facts, you're told that it's only faith that matters. trotsky Apr 2019 #33
Grasping at straws, I think that's called. MineralMan Apr 2019 #34
Even if they find evidence, it usually doesn't prove much. Mariana Apr 2019 #35
But they haven't found any evidence of Jesus, or his Dad, either. MineralMan Apr 2019 #36
When told that... uriel1972 Apr 2019 #38
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