Atheists & Agnostics

Atman

(31,464 posts)

160. Wrong. You are simply wrong.

Wed Sep 16, 2015, 05:08 PM

Sep 2015

Statistically, scientifically, actually...there is absolutely no correlation between attending AA and quitting drinking. None. You cannot find me any such evidence, I guarantee it. But then, you and I both stated virtually the same case; the only requirement (commitment) is to stop. I you are committed to sobriety, you can talk to a squirrel in the park and still quit drinking. AA does NOTHING to make you stop drinking. Again, there is Secular Organization for Sobriety, and many other non-God-based organizations which can offer you support. The only -- the ONLY -- commonality is one's personal desire/commitment to abstain. There is absolutely no reason, none whatsoever, that a court should mandate you to attend an AA church service, which is exactly what they are. You can call God a doorknob all you want, but when you force me to hold hands and pray to a doorknob, you're not fooling anybody.

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Atheist Mom Forced Into Court-Ordered Christian Counseling [View all] beam me up scottie Sep 2015 OP

What a nightmere me b zola Sep 2015 #1

I don't believe a challenge to counseling at AA has made it to SCOTUS yet. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #3

AA says your higher power can be a toilet seat, but you have to accept there is a "higher power" peacebird Sep 2015 #43

It's wrong to tell an atheist they have to accept any higher power. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #50

I agree totally with you, that said, the 'excuse' I have heard from AAers is youndon't have to peacebird Sep 2015 #52

It is weird. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #54

It's wrong to tell any alcoholic that Major Nikon Sep 2015 #167

An atheist acquaintance of mine dealt with that one quite nicely Warpy Sep 2015 #181

The higher power thing allows for each person to have jwirr Sep 2015 #67

Well that is certainly better! peacebird Sep 2015 #74

My objection to court order participation is that it jwirr Sep 2015 #76

The higher power thing allows for.... AlbertCat Sep 2015 #84

What wording would you use is you knew that you were jwirr Sep 2015 #88

dealing with a mixture of beliefs? AlbertCat Sep 2015 #92

If I ever had to go into AA I'd pick Tinkerbell passiveporcupine Sep 2015 #169

Exactly... awoke_in_2003 Sep 2015 #141

accept there is a "higher power" AlbertCat Sep 2015 #81

And as I said that is why I object to court ordered jwirr Sep 2015 #89

the person attending has to want to quit. AlbertCat Sep 2015 #104

Yes, I agree with everything you have just said. I jwirr Sep 2015 #105

"there were folks who are obviously addicted to going to these meetings" awoke_in_2003 Sep 2015 #142

Many AA members are heavy smokers. Having to go outside in most meeting venues maddiemom Sep 2015 #127

Yeah. "God as we understand Him" actually. maddiemom Sep 2015 #125

Yep busterbrown Sep 2015 #147

Actually Old Codger Sep 2015 #184

Be careful please.. busterbrown Sep 2015 #146

And like I said, many atheists reject the idea of a higher power. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #148

Agree 100%.. busterbrown Sep 2015 #149

Atheists by the way are welcome in AA.. AlbertCat Sep 2015 #175

You mean like AA? Atman Sep 2015 #5

LOL, yeah, like AA me b zola Sep 2015 #9

What if my higher power is Pinot Noir? progressoid Sep 2015 #38

Mine is craft beer, but i like the way you think! peacebird Sep 2015 #53

Yeah! progressoid Sep 2015 #123

spelling nazi navarth Sep 2015 #154

Heh. progressoid Sep 2015 #157

What is objectionable about AA/NA is the endless proselytization about a prayer-answering progree Sep 2015 #55

"6 out of 6 of the highest courts...have found A.A. to be religious in nature" beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #61

I got out of it simply by refusing to attend and wearing them down. Atman Sep 2015 #122

The State and area where the Group is located has a lot to do busterbrown Sep 2015 #150

By the way Judges send people to aa because of the results.. busterbrown Sep 2015 #153

No, they don't. Atman Sep 2015 #158

Wrong.. The Only Requirement Is a Desire To Stop Drinking.. busterbrown Sep 2015 #159

Wrong. You are simply wrong. Atman Sep 2015 #160

Boy! Are you up the wrong creek. busterbrown Sep 2015 #164

You are obviously a friend of Bill. Atman Sep 2015 #166

religion as punishment passiveporcupine Sep 2015 #170

War on Christians? druidity33 Sep 2015 #2

Right? beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #4

That's it! Real persecution as opposed to the fake crap the Kentucky clerk claims. Dustlawyer Sep 2015 #23

Someone should set up a go fund me account for this mom. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #24

Forced religion is here folks. retrowire Sep 2015 #6

Yes it is. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #7

wow retrowire Sep 2015 #8

It's in the US Constitution: beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #11

apparently it's a phrase and interpretation. retrowire Sep 2015 #27

One of my favorite quotes, also. maddiemom Sep 2015 #64

me? no sarcasm retrowire Sep 2015 #93

That's not fascism Auggie Sep 2015 #45

I think it's a form of fascism for any citizen to be given a choice mountain grammy Sep 2015 #57

Needs to be widespread ideology supported by national and local government with accompanying law Auggie Sep 2015 #98

I'm afraid it's not that isolated. mountain grammy Sep 2015 #101

oh, hmmm food for thought! n/t retrowire Sep 2015 #65

wow LittleGirl Sep 2015 #10

Nah, she's a Christian. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #13

I agree LittleGirl Sep 2015 #15

You got it. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #16

hypocrites LittleGirl Sep 2015 #40

Exactly. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #42

It's appalling. They're the Christian Taliban. Can you just imagine PeaceNikki Sep 2015 #12

But that's DIFFERENT. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #14

How much more proof do we need... gregcrawford Sep 2015 #17

I agree 100%. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #19

{{shudder}} flygal Sep 2015 #18

I worked for one who made me send printed bible verses with the customers' invoices. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #20

I got Lasik from a doctor who prayed before he started lasering my eyeball. Arugula Latte Sep 2015 #95

I'd like to see this go to SCOTUS RoccoR5955 Sep 2015 #21

She endured it to get her kids back. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #22

No religion is just not making a choice Lordquinton Sep 2015 #126

Why can't I choose RoccoR5955 Sep 2015 #138

Poor woman has to surround herself with these wackos! wolfie001 Sep 2015 #25

Can you imagine? beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #26

What the ever-loving fuck! ('nuff said) mak3cats Sep 2015 #28

. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #29

Another one for the Talibornagain file.... blackspade Sep 2015 #30

And they think Kim Davis is a victim. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #31

No doubt. blackspade Sep 2015 #32

And yet, there are some on DU who think Atheists face little to no persecution... LostOne4Ever Sep 2015 #33

Such a cruel thing to do to a mother trying to get her kids back. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #34

"Christian Mom Forced Into Court-Ordered Atheist Counseling" KansDem Sep 2015 #35

Or "Christian Mom Forced Into Court-Ordered Muslim Counseling" beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #37

Typically, you don't need "counseling" if you're an atheist. They aren't the troubled ones. n/t jtuck004 Sep 2015 #41

So odd how so many self-described "Christians" raouldukelives Sep 2015 #36

They pick and choose which parts of the bible they want to follow. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #39

And it's usually the hateful parts. Thav Sep 2015 #49

Well most atheists know all Christians aren't like that counselor. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #51

True, but it makes it much easier to spot a real one whn you see one. nt raouldukelives Sep 2015 #56

Please don't use the No True Scotsman fallacy. Manifestor_of_Light Sep 2015 #161

Well, sure. Just like anyone I suppose. raouldukelives Sep 2015 #187

The logical statement would be Manifestor_of_Light Sep 2015 #188

It is insanity to hear them hop from book to book. raouldukelives Sep 2015 #189

This "counselor" is a piece of work. progressoid Sep 2015 #44

Thanks! I couldn't get the video to embed in the op. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #47

So the Court (government) orders counseling mountain grammy Sep 2015 #62

Christian fascism. kenfrequed Sep 2015 #46

When I read the headline I thought it would be Texas. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #48

So if the higher power is Punx Sep 2015 #58

You mean in AA? beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #59

Yes, like A.A. -- all 6 of the highest courts have found it to be religious, for quite obvious progree Sep 2015 #60

Thank you, that deserves its own op in this group. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #63

Thanks. I'll work on a stand-alone OP version progree Sep 2015 #71

What I was trying to point out Punx Sep 2015 #69

Good point about being a user of Cannabis and a follower of the Church of C. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #72

Where is the ACLU? If ever there was a case of the jwirr Sep 2015 #66

She got her kids back but hopefully she sues. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #68

Thanks for the correction. Glad she got the kids back. jwirr Sep 2015 #70

Yes, most counselors who are religious don't cross that line. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #73

"most counselors who are religious don't cross that line" Lordquinton Sep 2015 #128

Sue for What? She disobeyed a COURT ORDER. happyslug Sep 2015 #80

From the ACLU: beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #85

The ACLU rarely gets involved in Child custody cases. happyslug Sep 2015 #100

You're telling me what this woman "should have done" based on what you don't know? beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #103

The Report stated the Judge took away the Children, that could only be be in contempt happyslug Sep 2015 #108

So you're just speculating that she was a bitter ex and used this as an excuse to get out of it. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #109

Did you even read the story, or watch the video? passiveporcupine Sep 2015 #176

An ACLU case would not be a child custody case, it would be a violation of her civil liberties Dont call me Shirley Sep 2015 #163

It is? Courts do this all the time... happyslug Sep 2015 #77

You suspect. The article stated that the court selected jwirr Sep 2015 #82

I knew someone would be along to blame the mom. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #87

To may variables for the Court to have selected the Counseling service happyslug Sep 2015 #114

Evidence - you are still suspecting. When a judge directs jwirr Sep 2015 #117

AA OPPOSES such Court Orders happyslug Sep 2015 #120

Baloney. A.A. actively facilitates coerced attendance progree Sep 2015 #143

I worked in the court system in my state for several years, and that's not at all how it worked EvolveOrConvolve Sep 2015 #178

I suspect what you are describing is true of some judges and some jurisdictions progree Sep 2015 #83

No passiveporcupine Sep 2015 #177

Courts do NOT take phone calls, they want a written petition. happyslug Sep 2015 #182

When they didn't reply to her, she did take it back to court passiveporcupine Sep 2015 #183

Where is the FATHER's side of this argument??? Where is the appeal? happyslug Sep 2015 #75

Oh please. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #79

My experience is the MOTHER SELECTED HER COUNSELOR happyslug Sep 2015 #91

Your experience doesn't count for jack when you use it to blame the mother without evidence. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #94

I do NOT see anything that the Court ORDER religious teaching, happyslug Sep 2015 #106

Do you have a problem with an atheist being forced to write an essay titled "Who is God to me?" beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #107

As I said before that was her choice happyslug Sep 2015 #110

It she refused to comply she would have lost her kids, she was forced to write it. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #111

She always had the right to get her counseling done by someone else. happyslug Sep 2015 #144

I pity your clients if you base your judgment on the suspicion that women are liars. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #151

Wow, you have said that she "selected" this counselor at least ten times, Curmudgeoness Sep 2015 #121

a fictional character invented by primitive pre-scientific people to explain things like lightning progree Sep 2015 #112

I don't think they'd like what I'd write either. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #113

Yup. Church and State Magazine is full of cases like this. (au.org) progree Sep 2015 #115

I don't know what I'd do if I was ordered to AA. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #116

Ahh, the Marines. Well you asked for this... <g> progree Sep 2015 #118

Ugh. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #119

How did we get on the AA? happyslug Sep 2015 #124

Number one - A.A. facilitates coerced attendance. Two: Most courts in Minnesota do progree Sep 2015 #140

I didn't have any choice in the matter. onager Sep 2015 #152

Illegal orders should always be disobeyed Lordquinton Sep 2015 #129

+1 beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #130

I haven't seen such leaps of logic Since Lordquinton Sep 2015 #133

They do remind me of some other folks now that you mention it... beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #135

The husband and children have been reduced to barely a mention Lordquinton Sep 2015 #136

It was part of her plan to... to ... what was it she wanted to do again? beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #137

If you break the law, be prepared to take the consequences, and that includes Court Orders... happyslug Sep 2015 #139

How do you know she had the option and chose to disobey the order instead? beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #145

If you break the law be prepared to pay the consequences. Agree so far. But you don't have to like rhett o rick Sep 2015 #168

And that includes the judge. The judge broke the law by forcing an atheist to pray. jeff47 Sep 2015 #171

"The meaning in my life is to know..." AlbertCat Sep 2015 #78

Just imagine the kind of counseling she did when she worked for that radical anti-choice group. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #90

This story disgusts me. The total disregard of separation of church and state by the courts valerief Sep 2015 #86

Agreed. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #97

Bingo! valerief Sep 2015 #134

Chilling. This forced religious nuttery has got to stop. Arugula Latte Sep 2015 #96

The mother was forced to write an essay "Who is God to me?". beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #99

Yeah, Huckabee would personally march into the counseling place Arugula Latte Sep 2015 #102

Judges keep getting... KyleMcShades Sep 2015 #131

I agree. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #132

Religion does not trump secular law. V0ltairesGh0st Sep 2015 #155

Hear hear! beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #156

They actually have an "alternative" swearing-in. jeff47 Sep 2015 #172

This isn't how you win converts Babel_17 Sep 2015 #162

It sure does make enemies. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #173

Look for the money trail between the judge and the "counselor." EEO Sep 2015 #165

Both should be out of jobs. beam me up scottie Sep 2015 #174

Same here. I have been an atheist for nearly two decades now, and these things really piss me off. EEO Sep 2015 #179

Arrogance and force are not Christian. senz Sep 2015 #180

Obnoxious and infuriating. Yes, indeed. Enthusiast Sep 2015 #185

My "What-does-God-mean-to-you" homework: DetlefK Sep 2015 #186