2016 Postmortem

benEzra

(12,148 posts)

3. If you fail to understand the nuances of the issue, you'll fail to understand how to avoid missteps.

Wed Nov 30, 2016, 07:11 PM

Nov 2016

Your response is *exactly* why Gore failed to learn from Bill Clinton's mistakes in 2000, and lost; ditto Kerry in '04. Howard Dean worked hard to shed that fundamentalist mindset, and Dems did well in '06 and '08, before the Third Way authoritarians dragged the party back into the ditch in 2012-2013.

If you see mainstream gun ownership as a "sin" like racism and bigotry, then that failure to listen is certainly understandable. But purely from a pragmatic standpoint, it is helpful to understand the issue even if you personally don't like the guns in U.S. homes.

There is common ground to be found on violence prevention. Banning the most popular guns and magazines in U.S. homes isn't it.

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History doesn't repeat, but it often rhymes; lessons from 2004 re: the gun issue. [View all] benEzra Nov 2016 OP

Maybe we should be a little more racist and homophobic, too frazzled Nov 2016 #1

The House Sit in made me Proud to be a Democrat Jason1961 Nov 2016 #2

"Being OK with gun violence" and "supporting reactionary laws against the nonviolent"... benEzra Nov 2016 #4

Please go read the OP again, you missed the point Amishman Dec 2016 #9

Yes, exactly. (n/t) benEzra Dec 2016 #13

Gun violence .... gun ownership two different things Kathy M Dec 2016 #25

If you fail to understand the nuances of the issue, you'll fail to understand how to avoid missteps. benEzra Nov 2016 #3

If all you can see is guns frazzled Nov 2016 #5

Not exactly, but you are certainly welcome to think it was a nonissue here. benEzra Nov 2016 #6

THE number one issue that turned people republican in WV hollowdweller Dec 2016 #149

You didn't choose a mainstream example. You chose an open Zimmerman supporter. stone space Dec 2016 #18

I agree. stone space Dec 2016 #41

You think guns were the primary issue of this campaign? TwilightZone Nov 2016 #7

I said they were *a* huge issue in a lot of swing states this year, as in 2000 and 2004. benEzra Dec 2016 #8

Also in 2012 when Obama endorsed the AWB and gun nuts unanimously predicted DanTex Dec 2016 #10

*After* the 2012 election. The results of that shift fell out in the 2014 midterms. How'd that go? benEzra Dec 2016 #12

Nope. He did it in a debate with Romney. DanTex Dec 2016 #16

That was understood as pandering to the zealots; he made no real moves against gun owners. benEzra Dec 2016 #22

LOL. In other words, your whole story is based on false premises. DanTex Dec 2016 #23

"..they could pick up a few gun nut votes." You vastly underestimate the gun vote Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #36

The racist vote is pretty big too. Mostly the same vote, really. DanTex Dec 2016 #37

See? I rest my case. (n/t) benEzra Dec 2016 #43

I'm a (former) Texan. I know gun nuttery. DanTex Dec 2016 #55

How's that view of your fellow citizens worked out for you?? Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #62

Great. I live in NYC now. Best city on the planet IMO. Though I do like Paris. DanTex Dec 2016 #65

We're damn near neighbors.... Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #68

I love the Adirondacks, though I don't know where Adirondack Park is exactly. DanTex Dec 2016 #71

Encon protects the wilderness...funded by, in part, hunters like me... Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #74

Keep that mindset....we look forward to it....you'll be in the minority for decades. Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #46

You look forward to Dems being the minority? Why are you on DU? DanTex Dec 2016 #53

Not Democrats....you grabbers....many Democrats like me support gun RIGHTS. Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #60

So I take it you voted for Hillary? DanTex Dec 2016 #61

Of course I did....she wasn't going to grab guns no matter what she said. Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #66

Very good. If even a hard core gunner like you voted Dem, looks like the "concern" expressed DanTex Dec 2016 #69

"Tens of thousands" aren't killed by the guns you want to ban; less than 150 are. benEzra Dec 2016 #42

Who said I wanted to ban anything? DanTex Dec 2016 #51

See, after all that hate, you come up with one proposal there could actually be common ground on. benEzra Dec 2016 #64

What hate? DanTex Dec 2016 #73

Believe what you want. hollowdweller Dec 2016 #150

I grudgingly agree. Buckeye_Democrat Dec 2016 #11

Running on gun was good for hitting Sanders on the left, bad for the general election. jake335544 Dec 2016 #14

We see things the same. hollowdweller Dec 2016 #151

the "gun issue" is about stimulating NRAnls to donate after ridiculous guns-in-bars proposals Kolesar Dec 2016 #15

If carry prohibitions were limited to actual carry while at a bar/drinking, or carry while impaired, benEzra Dec 2016 #19

Republicans like to deflect the issue into a discussion on mental health funding Kolesar Dec 2016 #20

I'm not a Repub, and legislating rifle stock shape doesn't prevent suicides. benEzra Dec 2016 #21

Packing Guns in the Day Care Center Kolesar Dec 2016 #123

How are airport parking garages different from other parking garages? benEzra Dec 2016 #124

You are applying logic to emotion-based prohibitionism, so your questions will most likely... friendly_iconoclast Dec 2016 #125

93% of us don't need guns to visit the airport...eom Kolesar Dec 2016 #153

A point that is applicable to any other parking garage in any other place. benEzra Dec 2016 #154

Your second paragraph is daff Kolesar Dec 2016 #155

On the contrary, there is really no other basis for harassing a cohort benEzra Dec 2016 #156

More death and mayhem Kolesar Jan 2017 #157

Umm, Florida *doesn't* allow carry in airport terminals, which is exactly the law you advocate. benEzra Jan 2017 #158

The 'right' of California to enact homophobic laws thanks to Proposition 8 was overridden. friendly_iconoclast Dec 2016 #127

I truely don't understand Zimmerman supporters. stone space Dec 2016 #17

Mos understand the support for Zman stalking, intimidating, and shooting a skinny unarmed Black kid. Hoyt Dec 2016 #27

Except that didn't happen did it Hoyt? Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #29

What didn't happen? Hoyt Dec 2016 #33

"..stalking, intimidating, and shooting a skinny unarmed Black kid." Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #48

Damn sure did. Lots of gunners think that's OK, but it happened. Hoyt Dec 2016 #78

No actually it didn't per the testimony in the trial....which I saw every minute of. Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #87

So Zman didn't follow Martin, scare him and shoot him? You gunners amaze me. Hoyt Dec 2016 #88

Followed maybe...scare..no..shoot yeah.....don't slam a "white hispanics" head into the Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #89

From Matin's friend's testimony, he was clearly scared. You were likely too busy making fun of her Hoyt Dec 2016 #90

EXCEPT...the phone records showed her a liar....she got caught lying Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #91

She clearly said Martin was scared of the guy stalking him. You support gunners, even Hoyt Dec 2016 #92

"of the guy stalying him.."....shall I post the Cross where she's caught in THAT lie? Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #94

Why don't you. Fact is you believe gunners like Zman who shoot unarmed Black kids and get away Hoyt Dec 2016 #96

I call him Zidiot...I do NOT support him as we've discussed on DI....and you know that. Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #98

You clearly support him and similar gunners. LMAO --Talk about fake accounts. Hoyt Dec 2016 #102

Nice try CTA..... Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #118

stoney....you know better....you really do. Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #28

The people on that list are self-identified Zimmerman supporters. stone space Dec 2016 #80

They are supporters of LAW....probably every one of them..like me, watched the trial. Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #86

Thank you for the excellent OP and the truth. Prepare to get hammered with jack_krass Dec 2016 #24

Ha, you are psychic. benEzra Dec 2016 #54

Lol, one of my fav posters. Not sure if that one is an antigunner or is mocking rabid antigunners jack_krass Dec 2016 #59

Why do open carry gun nuts bully Latina students like Ana Lopez when guns are allowed on campus? stone space Dec 2016 #76

I think *that* is a perfect example of how the gun control movement has lost its way. benEzra Dec 2016 #81

Seriously? You're blaming the victim here? stone space Dec 2016 #82

Did you read my post? benEzra Dec 2016 #83

My policy proposal is to stop gunbullying Latina students. (nt) stone space Dec 2016 #84

Stop.....you policy is to eliminate guns.....just say it...Free yourself, be honest with us Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #93

Do you support this sort of gunbullying being deployed against Latina students trying to study? stone space Dec 2016 #95

This meme of yours has been debunked...but I want you to explain to us... Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #97

Why do you feel the need to make personal insults? stone space Dec 2016 #99

No...she isn't...".being gunbullied by an open carry activist like this?" Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #119

Why is her race relevant? Marengo Dec 2016 #120

White wing love of gunz and racism are closely related in this country. Hoyt Dec 2016 #26

My girlfriend is AA...going for her carry permit this month.... Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #32

An old Gungeoneer returns. LMAO. Hoyt Dec 2016 #34

I have NO clue what a "Gungeoneer" is....BUT Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #50

This message was self-deleted by its author Duckhunter935 Dec 2016 #77

Who is it? Or, should I say what was the former user name? Marengo Dec 2016 #85

Next You're Going To Tell Me The U.S. Had Slavery nt SoCalMusicLover Dec 2016 #45

Why do so many Dems like guns? Can I assume its not racisim? jmg257 Dec 2016 #56

Take a critical look at posts in Gungeon, that'll give you a clue. Hoyt Dec 2016 #79

Just Suck It Up, And Get Over It! SoCalMusicLover Dec 2016 #30

why not leave it to the states DonCoquixote Dec 2016 #31

Chicago Is Perfect Example SoCalMusicLover Dec 2016 #35

1400 people are responsible for 80% of the gun violence in Chicago, and the police KNOW jmg257 Dec 2016 #38

Hunting is a very small reason to own guns these days...only 15-18% of the 80-90 million gun owners jmg257 Dec 2016 #39

For Protection? SoCalMusicLover Dec 2016 #44

Yep - self-defense is the number one reason these days. jmg257 Dec 2016 #49

Again, What Confuses Me... SoCalMusicLover Dec 2016 #57

Guns can certainly be in a safe. Or on your person if so inclined. At night you can keep jmg257 Dec 2016 #63

Thoughts... benEzra Dec 2016 #75

That's entirely delusional.... Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #58

I think you are under some misconceptions here... benEzra Dec 2016 #72

Gun control did not lose us this election samir.g Dec 2016 #40

It lost at least 6 senate seats in 2014, and it was a big factor in several swing states this year, benEzra Dec 2016 #70

I Sometimes Wonder How Other Countries Can Exist SoCalMusicLover Dec 2016 #47

"Gun Culture" is certainly a thing. Grow up with them, depend on them even, they are no big deal. jmg257 Dec 2016 #52

You realize "assault weapons" are common in Canada and legal across most of Europe, yes? benEzra Dec 2016 #67

Your thread has devolved into a defense of George Zimmerman and Brett Sanders. stone space Dec 2016 #100

Oh FFS ss.......you're the one that always brings up Zimmerman....... pablo_marmol Dec 2016 #105

Are you going to pretend that Zimmerman is not being defended here in this thread? stone space Dec 2016 #107

I refuse to engage with you any further. pablo_marmol Dec 2016 #108

You are mocking us for being afraid after the bloodiest election in Iowa's history. stone space Dec 2016 #109

This violence is directly related to the election? Marengo Dec 2016 #121

As more and more people bury their children with patched up holes in their chests... wyldwolf Dec 2016 #101

Keep telling yourself that as you continue to believe in that mythical "epidemic of gun violence." pablo_marmol Dec 2016 #106

I will because mass shootings have become more common wyldwolf Dec 2016 #113

While mass shootings are *obviously* tragic........ pablo_marmol Dec 2016 #115

Rifle homicide is *decreasing*, not increasing, from 442/yr in 2005 to 250/yr now. benEzra Dec 2016 #116

Until the same amount fear mass shooting as much as fearing losing their jobs hollowdweller Dec 2016 #152

Zealously advocating for more gun restrictions always hurts us in the general election. aikoaiko Dec 2016 #103

Bernie sabataged his own primary campaign with the PLCAA. And I say this as a Bernie supporter. stone space Dec 2016 #111

The Phyrric victory goes to the anti-RKBA crowd. aikoaiko Dec 2016 #114

The problem is..you don't know what PLACCA is....Bernie gained votes up here for supporting it. Nancyswidower Dec 2016 #122

Copy/pasted from another post: pablo_marmol Dec 2016 #104

k&r flying rabbit Dec 2016 #110

The party hasn't told anybody to "vote non-Democrat, or else". stone space Dec 2016 #112

"Vote for me, and I promise to put you in prison unless you conform to my beliefs" benEzra Dec 2016 #117

Most Trump supporters are white wing racists, as are most gun nuts. Hoyt Dec 2016 #126

And most anti-gun nuts are bigots, so what's your point? friendly_iconoclast Dec 2016 #128

I admit it, when it comes to ignorant racist gun nuts, I am bigoted against them Hoyt Dec 2016 #129

See, smearing the quarter of Dems and third of independents who own guns like that... benEzra Dec 2016 #130

I'm not concerned about someone with a gun or two at home for hunting Hoyt Dec 2016 #131

Unless... benEzra Dec 2016 #132

Gun owners who are irrational and paranoid should be checked by mental health professionals. Hoyt Dec 2016 #133

The ability to read and understand Federal and state law... benEzra Dec 2016 #134

Ben, any discussion that puts you guys' gunz in a bad light is automatically shut down by gun Hoyt Dec 2016 #135

My guns have harmed no one, and I do my part to help ensure they never will. benEzra Dec 2016 #138

NRA endorsed Dem lost in Mo loyalsister Dec 2016 #136

What does threatening people with felonies for having the wrong shape rifle stock benEzra Dec 2016 #137

It's the mindset that's the problem loyalsister Dec 2016 #139

What mindset? The one that doesn't accept what your crowd deems to be 'sinful' as being sinful? friendly_iconoclast Dec 2016 #140

The belief in the right to kill a lot of civilians in a matter of seconds loyalsister Dec 2016 #141

An *imagined* mindset of the owners is more important than actual crime rates to you? friendly_iconoclast Dec 2016 #142

A belief in an unconditional right to own weapons specifically designed to kill a lot of people loyalsister Dec 2016 #143

Well then, take the matter up with your co-religionists and leave the rest of us alone friendly_iconoclast Dec 2016 #144

Basic human decency loyalsister Dec 2016 #145

Basic human decency demands that laws be based on their impact on the public at large friendly_iconoclast Dec 2016 #146

Except those guns aren't on the civilian market, and aren't the subject of proposed bans. benEzra Dec 2016 #148

Thoughts, at some length... benEzra Dec 2016 #147

I don't recall guns even being an issue in the race? Blue_Tires Jan 2017 #159

Clinton made magazine and "assault weapon" bans one of her top issues in the primary. benEzra Jan 2017 #160