2016 Postmortem

TheBlackAdder

(28,917 posts)

175. Still, there's the disconnect with political reality.

Fri Dec 2, 2016, 02:32 PM

Dec 2016

.

Many of the people who favored Sanders were Independents who didn't like either, for whatever reasons they had. They had their personal reasons. To them, Sanders offered a solution. Now, as Democrats it's a myopic view to assume people will fall in line, when they have different intersectional backgrounds.

Some here keep fixating on Bernie's message and trifles that distract from the point I am trying to convey.

In the political arena, who really gives a shit if Sanders' message was bunk? He drove a high number of Indy and cross-over Republicans and Dems during the primary. Clinton centered mainly on Democratic support. This would have been a 60-40 Presidential election if the two paired. But, hubris got the best of her--now neither are president or VP.

===

Ronald Reagan and George HW Bush fucking hated each other... I mean they fucking loathed each other!

But, they came together for the party win, and win they did. If they stayed divided, Carter would have won re-election.

Clinton chose division, with partial co-opting and tepid acceptance of some platform positions.

===

Clinton's choice of Kaine sent a nationwide gasp, and a collective, "Who the fuck is Tim Kaine?" cry.

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If you don't think Bernie and his campaign and his supporters basically calling Hillary [View all] boston bean Dec 2016 OP

K&R! stonecutter357 Dec 2016 #1

Well Hillary was more the lesser of two evils el_bryanto Dec 2016 #2

I liked Hillary alot and would have had to hold my nose to vote for Bernie...didn't like him. Demsrule86 Dec 2016 #160

Another pick on Sanders OP, to drive views and comments, but Ill play. TheBlackAdder Dec 2016 #172

Well those who didn't vote for her because she didn't worship at Bernie's feet Demsrule86 Dec 2016 #174

Still, there's the disconnect with political reality. TheBlackAdder Dec 2016 #175

She didn't win with the people who wanted CHANGE TexasBushwhacker Dec 2016 #177

There are a few reasons for that, and many are not opening up their minds that motivations vary. TheBlackAdder Dec 2016 #180

I'm glad I'm not the only one TexasBushwhacker Dec 2016 #181

No. There were not "two evils" on the ballot. tinrobot Dec 2016 #183

I guess you aren't familiar with the phrase lesser of two evils el_bryanto Dec 2016 #184

It is equivocation. It means both candidates are "evil" tinrobot Dec 2016 #187

Well how would you have phrased it? If it had been Sanders and Trump for example? nt el_bryanto Dec 2016 #189

I dunno... I'm sure you can come up with something that works. tinrobot Dec 2016 #193

None of those convey the same thing though, do they? el_bryanto Dec 2016 #195

You don't always need to disclose the complete inner workings of your decision process. tinrobot Dec 2016 #198

That seems dishonest and counter productive el_bryanto Dec 2016 #199

Sowing doubt about a candidate is productive? tinrobot Dec 2016 #200

Anyone and I mean anyone that uses the term the lesser of two evils... LiberalFighter Dec 2016 #194

OK - that makes no sense el_bryanto Dec 2016 #196

This message was self-deleted by its author Duckhunter935 Dec 2016 #3

Hillary WASN'T a weak candidate. She was one of the strongest candidates any party has ever fielded EffieBlack Dec 2016 #6

So true... but but but they want to say.. White people in rural areas who voted for a racist boston bean Dec 2016 #10

Its funny how Sanders people pointed this out in the primary and Clinton people ignored it GummyBearz Dec 2016 #58

You really think that Bernie would have won the general when he couldn't win the primary? (nt) ehrnst Dec 2016 #65

Well his head to head matchup numbers vs trump were better than Hillary's were GummyBearz Dec 2016 #80

Can you provide a link to those stats? (nt) ehrnst Dec 2016 #83

These are the first ones I found, the dates are a few months off though GummyBearz Dec 2016 #85

They'd have to include Bloomberg since he said he was in if Bernie won the primary. n/t seaglass Dec 2016 #93

As if that was definite. JudyM Dec 2016 #169

Everyone who doesnt participate in the GE have polling better than if they were participating. stevenleser Dec 2016 #102

And that goes both ways GummyBearz Dec 2016 #113

There is no both ways. Its a very simple issue. nt stevenleser Dec 2016 #115

Uh no GummyBearz Dec 2016 #117

+1000 and 10% point spread. JudyM Dec 2016 #171

Exactly. So tired of the flogging of that "oh, he would've been decimated for being socialist" JudyM Dec 2016 #170

Yes, Bernie beats trump. He wins every state HRC did PLUS the rust belt. A tragic missed oppurtunity jack_krass Dec 2016 #166

good post. Wonder how the general election would have turned out if Sanders was the VP? Sunlei Dec 2016 #77

Well said. These are the facts that I can't help ruminating on. TonyPDX Dec 2016 #90

Post removed Post removed Dec 2016 #34

that is utter crap dsc Dec 2016 #41

The conspiracy part was crap. Even though the DNC favored her, they Chakab Dec 2016 #49

Party leadership continues in mistake mode.... RiverStone Dec 2016 #155

Amen jack_krass Dec 2016 #167

Don't want to pick a fight, but that was not my experience in talking to folks ReverendHeretic Dec 2016 #52

"Talking to folks" is no substitute for objective, verified numbers and analysis. LanternWaste Dec 2016 #126

yup, like all those numbers proving that Hillary would win? ReverendHeretic Dec 2016 #154

Welcome to DU n/t musicblind Dec 2016 #129

Didn't kick ass in Wisconsin; didn't even go there. MadDAsHell Dec 2016 #137

If she was such a strong candidate, why were her popularity numbers so low? Her trust numbers? JudyM Dec 2016 #157

IF BERNIE had worked HARDER for Hillary, it would have helped her alot. trueblue2007 Dec 2016 #168

Hillary Clinton was not a weak candidate. musicblind Dec 2016 #17

She had 25 years of smears, many of which Bernie supporters believed ehrnst Dec 2016 #68

The 53% of women who voted against her were Bernie supporters? TonyPDX Dec 2016 #92

No - 54% of all women who voted voted FOR Hillary. Please get your stats straight. (nt) ehrnst Dec 2016 #95

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/01/us/politics/white-women-helped-elect-donald-trump.html?_r0 TonyPDX Dec 2016 #107

White women does not equal "women" spooky3 Dec 2016 #188

Losing a majority of any sector was her problem, not mine. Why did they vote against her? TonyPDX Dec 2016 #191

when you understand more about statistics, let's have a conversation. spooky3 Dec 2016 #192

Again, an allegation lacking any objective evidence to support it. LanternWaste Dec 2016 #124

You give 3 GS speeches for $675K and them's the breaks BeyondGeography Dec 2016 #4

There was NONE and STILL NO boston bean Dec 2016 #7

There didn't have to be BeyondGeography Dec 2016 #11

Such direct evidence wouldn't exist. el_bryanto Dec 2016 #12

she had a right to be exempt from that perception, she deserved the benefit of the doubt NRQ891 Dec 2016 #20

This message was self-deleted by its author Duckhunter935 Dec 2016 #144

And Trump's speaking fees were as high as a million and a half. musicblind Dec 2016 #18

Was Trump running in the Democratic primary? BeyondGeography Dec 2016 #23

She would have been better off by simple releasing the transcripts... TCJ70 Dec 2016 #25

Bernie hiding his tax returns was also an issue. (nt) ehrnst Dec 2016 #97

No argument from me. n/t TCJ70 Dec 2016 #125

This message was self-deleted by its author Duckhunter935 Dec 2016 #146

Bernie's tax returns was not a negative for Hillary. Raster Dec 2016 #176

Had the Democrats not pounded her on the speeches musicblind Dec 2016 #132

Rooting for political malpractice is not a strategy BeyondGeography Dec 2016 #136

So "what the hell was Bernie thinking" when he refused to release his tax returns? (nt) ehrnst Dec 2016 #69

That was fair game too BeyondGeography Dec 2016 #76

Not among Bernie's supporters, it wasn't. (nt) ehrnst Dec 2016 #99

This message was self-deleted by its author Duckhunter935 Dec 2016 #148

This message was self-deleted by its author Duckhunter935 Dec 2016 #147

What number thread is this for you on this subject? FYI NWCorona Dec 2016 #5

You seem to be counting.. Why don't you tell me. boston bean Dec 2016 #8

At least two. NWCorona Dec 2016 #9

Not a whole two. Say it ain't so. nt. NCTraveler Dec 2016 #14

OMG, someone made two entire threads to counter the dozens of B.S. threads out there! musicblind Dec 2016 #19

Lol NWCorona Dec 2016 #27

How many threads saying BS would have won? mcar Dec 2016 #37

More than two but most are written by people I never heard of NWCorona Dec 2016 #50

Post removed Post removed Dec 2016 #13

And you are absolutely correct. The only thing Sanders accomplished by smearing Hillary R B Garr Dec 2016 #15

what were Hillary's talking points again? What was she selling pre GE? Cuz i listened to her JCanete Dec 2016 #140

K&R! n/t musicblind Dec 2016 #16

Bernie Sanders is a member of the Senate Democratic leadership and therefore Larkspur Dec 2016 #21

Sanders is a Democrat? NCTraveler Dec 2016 #24

Post removed Post removed Dec 2016 #30

Do you have any comments about what she actually posted? R B Garr Dec 2016 #33

Look at how you have to explain it. NCTraveler Dec 2016 #47

He was not elected to his "leadership" post, he was appointed by MADem Dec 2016 #121

You are mistaken. He wasn't elected by his Senate peers. He was APPOINTED as an MADem Dec 2016 #118

This message was self-deleted by its author MADem Dec 2016 #123

Is Al Franken?? Nitpicking over a name. lostnfound Dec 2016 #32

Yes, Franken is. He self identifies as one. NCTraveler Dec 2016 #133

This message was self-deleted by its author Duckhunter935 Dec 2016 #149

That truly makes no sense. nt. NCTraveler Dec 2016 #150

This message was self-deleted by its author Duckhunter935 Dec 2016 #162

One of those you mention, like Sanders, isn't a Democrat. NCTraveler Dec 2016 #164

This message was self-deleted by its author Duckhunter935 Dec 2016 #165

Yet I've heard him attacking the Democratic party, even recently. R B Garr Dec 2016 #26

Criticizing the failed policies of the Democratic Party is not bashing the Democratic Party Larkspur Dec 2016 #35

As well as criticizing those who caused a great divide within the party. R B Garr Dec 2016 #40

HRC bashed Obama in 2008 yet he won the primary and GE despite her Larkspur Dec 2016 #53

At least you finally admit what was obvious: Bernie's whole strategy R B Garr Dec 2016 #61

Apparently that means jettisoning the social justice issues that have served the Dems well. ehrnst Dec 2016 #100

Actually he's no longer a Dem. He went back to being an Independent. brush Dec 2016 #75

Better get on the horn to Chuck Schumer before he appoints him to another committee, then. TonyPDX Dec 2016 #96

Chuck Schumer handed Bernie his Senate seat which is why Bernie doesn't point a finger ehrnst Dec 2016 #103

So Bernie needed to be bought off? That's some fancy speculating there. TonyPDX Dec 2016 #108

Agreed. TonyPDX Dec 2016 #94

Sanders is not a Democrat DemonGoddess Dec 2016 #120

No it should not ...he is not a Democrat...he could be one...but chose not to...also this is the Demsrule86 Dec 2016 #161

Are we serious here? PatsFan87 Dec 2016 #22

Unfortunately. Welcome to DU where we eat our own. Tobin S. Dec 2016 #31

Yawn. It was an election, you do what you can to win. Ace Rothstein Dec 2016 #28

Been a member of DU for 12+ years, this post makes me want to leave lostnfound Dec 2016 #29

She lost for the same reasons Jeb Bush lost. Gore1FL Dec 2016 #36

Post removed Post removed Dec 2016 #38

Hey Mr. Boston - FairWinds Dec 2016 #39

Reality is that it was Hillary who had to take it easy on Bernie so as not R B Garr Dec 2016 #43

The word "reality" doesn't belong anywhere near your post. Jokerman Dec 2016 #46

Now that's funny. Apparently you didn't watch the debates. R B Garr Dec 2016 #55

"Are we on the side of working people or big-money interests" ehrnst Dec 2016 #72

There had to be something in his taxes that the MSM would have run with... bettyellen Dec 2016 #134

The "rape fantasy" essay. The "orgasm boxes." The lack of a job until his 40s. BobbyDrake Dec 2016 #111

Wow, you sure can squeeze a lot of smears into just a few words . . FairWinds Dec 2016 #178

This discussion is just a distraction Politicub Dec 2016 #42

Making perfect the enemy of the good. WhiteTara Dec 2016 #44

Yep. And now we have horrific. (nt) ehrnst Dec 2016 #73

As we knew we would. I wonder WhiteTara Dec 2016 #79

DU rec...nt SidDithers Dec 2016 #45

People are "still making those arguments" about millions of fraudulent voters in California democrank Dec 2016 #48

She was called that for OVER 28 YEARS n2doc Dec 2016 #51

This panader0 Dec 2016 #66

The same asshats who called HRC "Goldwater Girl" are fine hailing Elizabeth Warran as a hero BobbyDrake Dec 2016 #54

I agree that it was ridiculous to hammer her over her political beliefs at 16-17. StevieM Dec 2016 #86

Well, two things. I agree, dragging out somebody's past that is that far removed is ungracious. JCanete Dec 2016 #142

Ignoring systemic racism and sexism in favor of "color-blind" and "gender-blind" solutions WILL BobbyDrake Dec 2016 #145

Well we shouldn't be color or gender blind. Who is promoting that? Warren or Sanders? I've never JCanete Dec 2016 #152

Sanders is all over the new demanding an end to "identity politics." BobbyDrake Dec 2016 #153

There is a refutation of this posted on these boards. He said we can't just offer identity politics. JCanete Dec 2016 #158

No, this did not harm Clinton. ananda Dec 2016 #56

Yeah, we need to stop catering to racists and,..what the hell are you talking about???? Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2016 #57

There is nothing useful or productive in this post mountain grammy Dec 2016 #59

This entire forum is geared towards rehashing what went wrong in 2016. As such... stevenleser Dec 2016 #101

The best way to deal with them is to mock them. Call them Trump humpers, Bernie Bros, progressoid Dec 2016 #60

Yes... Mike Nelson Dec 2016 #62

So did Trump and look at what it got him randr Dec 2016 #63

That first sentence was ...pretty complicated Kolesar Dec 2016 #64

"everything rigged against them (sound familiar)" Sounds VERY familiar...lots of that jmg257 Dec 2016 #67

And the civil war re-enactors are still at it. mac56 Dec 2016 #70

I still think Sanders is and was a HUGE benefit to the D party.We are weaker without him,much weaker Sunlei Dec 2016 #71

I disagree. I think that he is an outsider has turned the party back in terms of ehrnst Dec 2016 #74

an outsider? the mans been in our top government for decades! Sunlei Dec 2016 #81

He refused to join the party except temporarily to get establishment cred for his run. ehrnst Dec 2016 #84

He didn't want to split the vote and then run in the general election & hand republicans easy win. Sunlei Dec 2016 #87

And yet that was ultimately all that he accomplished anyway. He put Democrat against Democrat. BobbyDrake Dec 2016 #112

He did not, Ds split themselves and still today they do the same thing. Sunlei Dec 2016 #119

So if Obama lost in 2008, it would be Hillary's fault for running against him in the primary? killbotfactory Dec 2016 #127

If Hillary had behaved like Bernie did, maybe. but Obama was a man, so there's that. ehrnst Dec 2016 #182

She probably would have been blamed democrattotheend Dec 2016 #190

It's true that Bernie is an outsider to the Corporocracy . . FairWinds Dec 2016 #179

I think, or I would like to think it's a guilty conscience-- ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #78

fagedaboutit! tiredtoo Dec 2016 #82

Whether it's accurate or not, the fact remains that Hillary and Donald were the two most distrusted Cal33 Dec 2016 #88

Yes, every democrat absolutely LOVED Hillary before Bernie came along... killbotfactory Dec 2016 #89

Thank you. TonyPDX Dec 2016 #91

Why is that bill a big deal? JHan Dec 2016 #98

Before Bernie, apparently no one needed to "love" Hillary for her to be an acceptable candidate. ehrnst Dec 2016 #104

Before Bernie democrats had no choice. killbotfactory Dec 2016 #110

I take it you don't understand the background to that bill? ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #106

The bill was designed to take the issue of flag burning back to the supreme court killbotfactory Dec 2016 #109

What a facinating understanding of the bill. ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #116

Another thing to add to the growing list of #WhyTrumpWon.. JHan Dec 2016 #128

You can say that a bill that people forgot about had no impact on the GE, because on the one hand it JCanete Dec 2016 #138

Yes, there is a conflicted history between Clintons and some progressives.. JHan Dec 2016 #141

always good to have a respectful discussion with you! I'm not sure it fits this sub-forum, but if JCanete Dec 2016 #151

feeling is mutual, good to have a calm discussion on things. And I'm up for a thread on trade..:) JHan Dec 2016 #159

"Senator Clinton, in Pander Mode" - NYT killbotfactory Dec 2016 #131

So you find an OP piece? ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #139

It's over. Canadaexpat2 Dec 2016 #105

I never said one negative thing about Hillary. mahina Dec 2016 #114

K&R! DemonGoddess Dec 2016 #122

Many Still Calling Her Names, Primary Rigged otohara Dec 2016 #130

Well good for you about never voting for a racist. The problem with that statement though, JCanete Dec 2016 #135

And a HUGE step is recognizing and acknowledginthat how people of varying ethnic and minority groups ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #143

Oh. Um, *who* was too important and too smart? JudyM Dec 2016 #156

Sanders' baseless charges hurt Clinton in the general election Gothmog Dec 2016 #163

K&R Cha Dec 2016 #173

Post removed Post removed Dec 2016 #185

Yes, she should have. ismnotwasm Dec 2016 #186

KICK Cha Dec 2016 #197

"Why are people still making those arguments?" Orsino Dec 2016 #201

Ditto to everything you said. Tarheel_Dem Dec 2016 #202