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karynnj

(59,992 posts)
60. I am stunned that so many people overlooked ALL the completely obvious moral flaws in Trump
Mon Jan 2, 2017, 12:41 PM
Jan 2017

I actually wished I had a better word than flaws - as a "flaw" can be innocuous. However, I think he had two HUGE issues behind him - abortion, which he really did not have to say much, and the scapegoating of TPP and otehr trade deals for econnomic changes really due to automation and globalization.

Voting is a constrained choice and many people who juded Trump unfavorably voted for him. What I think back to is the 2002 NJ Senate race. It became clear by late summer/early fall that Torricelli was corrupt. I know relatively little about the Republican who opposed him, Forrester, other than that he did graduate from the Princeton Theological Seminary and was an former Eagle Scout. (NYT oped - http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/26/opinion/new-jersey-s-dreadful-senate-race.html )

Like many Democrats, I was appalled that I was going to vote for someone I KNEW did not deserve to continue to be a Senator. I voted for the control of the Senate, which though we did not get in 2002 - had Forrester won that seat, we would not have gained the majority in 2006. Based on just what I knew, it was very likely that Forrester was the more ethical, moral man. I suspect that there were many Republicans who voted not so much for Trump, but for Republicans to head all the various parts of the Executive branch and to nominate Supreme Court Justices they wanted. They voted for their team.

Not to mention, there was a reason that Trump at least twice made Bill Clinton's past a high profile issue. Unfair as it is to Hillary Clinton, it was a way of pointing out that Democrats nominated Bill Clinton in 1992 knowing he too had problems as well and he was renominated and reelected as more stories emerged. This actually worked on two levels. 1) Bill Clinton (and many earlier Presidents) were good Presidents in spite of not being models of good behavior. 2) It "normalized" that issue for some - either Trump or Bill Clinton would be in the White House. I know this ignores that Bill Clinton was not running. He would still be in the White House.

I would argue that the Reagan Democrats, in those rust belt states, are not - like me - on EITHER team to the degree that any of us are. I suspect that because the tilt of the Supreme Court was in the balance, Trump may have won many votes - including in those states - because of abortion. Think back that this was a big issue in 2004, where it was clear that Renquist would be replaced. Had Kerry won, that would been a shift from the right to the left. The seats up in 2008 were from the liberal side - so Obama's appointments kept the court where it was. They blocked Obama from replacing Alito because they controlled the Senate. I suspect that this issue had more force this year and in 2004 because THEY saw they could lose something they believed in to their core for a long time.

Of course, we NOW, see that we could lose everything that was so hard won in the last 8 years. However, I suspect that until election day, we were rather lolled into complacency. While there was a large core of people who have supported HRC for several decades and were excited that she would soon win the Presidency, there were many who were voting for her to support the Democratic agenda continuing. This is not to knock HRC, it is true in ANY election.

A much younger friend of mine complained that we always have a harder time because so many Republicans are essentially one issue voters, while we complain about ANY nominee as not being for 100% of what we want. For instance, people perceiving themselves as religious, voting for the degenerate Trump to "save babies" - in their words.

I also think that it always is hard to win a third term for any party. The other side can usually get the votes of people who are unhappy or frustrated. Here, Trump dishonestly used the trade deal issue. It has always been the Republicans who had the most unified support for the deals - even if Bill Clinton signed the NAFTA agreement, negotiated by GHWB. This may have been the second most powerful issue for Trump. He was able to label HRC as dishonest in her opposition to TPP - using her statements while SoS before it was completely negotiated. (From my point of view, her opposition was political. She shifted when Bernie Sanders, who consistently ideologically is genuinely against the trade deals, was gaining support.) In essence, this was a "twofer" for Trump - place HRC on the wrong side of an issue for the Reagan Democrats - AND reinforce her negative as dishonest and untrustworthy - while knowing that the big business Republicans will not believe they can not control him. (On the latter, his cabinet choices show they were not wrong.)

For me, I HATED when both Sanders and HRC trashed TPP, which may be the most progressive trade deal yet written. I do think that Donald Trump will renegotiate it -- taking out the hard fought for by the US environmental and workers rights provisions -- and it likely will pass with mostly Republican votes. So, the Reagan Democrats will get a deal that actually IS worse for them.

Economists have written about how the actual cause of lose of jobs in the rust belt were caused by technology (automation) and globalization - and was already happening before any trade deal was written. Even Jeremy Saks, who advised Bernie Sanders, actually supports trade deals as expanding the pie - arguing that you need to insure that some of the gains of the "winners" needs to support the "losers". In 1993, before NAFTA, you could already see in economic data that the yuppies (as the elites were labeled) were making more than their parents even dreamed of, while through the 1970s and 1980s, at least two thirds of the population found themselves slipping behind - even as they worked longer hours and most families found they needed both parents working, even as child care ate a considerable part of additional income.

I grew up in Northern Indiana - in the suburbs surrounding the steel mill towns. In my high school in a lower middle class town, about half of us went to college and half didn't. The state had a great program (the Hoosier scholarship) that paid some or all of the tuition at a state college - including the well regarded Purdue or Indiana University. This meant that if a student were reasonably smart (at least B average and SATs totalling 1000) , who wanted to go to college could.

However, there were immediate rewards for those who did not go to college. The boys got jobs in the steel mills that were well paying. The girls either took a secretarial course for a year or immediately applied for clerical jobs usually in Chicago. I was in the wedding of a friend who took that path. I was a junior in college, while she was a well dressed, sophisticated secretary at a Chicago company. She was a grown up, while I was a late 60s college kid. One of my brother's best friends went straight to the mills and even a few years after my brother graduated Purdue in mechanical engineering, the friend was STILL out earning him. I went to a 20 year reunion - the two halfs were already two different worlds. For one, most of us had young kids, while they had teenagers.

Now, most of the steel mills are gone, taking those jobs with them. The idea that you could work in a steel mill and live even a lower middle class life is not realistic now. Most of the secretarial jobs that people like my friend took before marrying well enough to quit until that did not work out, are gone - many of those jobs lost to AUDIX which answers phones and "takes messages" and computers that led to very few people being needed to type letters or memos. These people are rust belt voters and Lake County has always been a Democratic stronghold. HRC did win the county, which also contains a large black population in Gary, East Chicago and Hammond, but by significantly less than Obama.

These jobs have been disappearing for decades. This means that many of my age cohort who stayed in the region, did not - as they might have expected when they took jobs straight out of school and worked hard to do them well - recently retire after working for their company for decades, with union negotiated defined benefit pensions to augment their social security. That was the experience of their fathers, so this was not something that was an unreasonable expectation back in 1968 when they left high school. Many likely had to look for and take jobs paying less in the past decades. For them, the giddiness of the late 1960s when they expected to do financially better than their parents hit reality years ago, but it probably does make them vulnerable to people who can demagogue and create a scapegoat for an economy that dashed their hopes. You can imagine how susceptible they would be to a slogan "make America great again".

Now consider that their kids, many of whom became adults in the early 1990s, as my kids entered elementary school, could not follow the path of their parents. Those paths were already collapsing.

We need to find the words and actions that let us communicate to these people. In reality, many things that Obama did actually helped them - especially ACA. We have to find a way to get them to see us clearly enough that the Republican wedge issues fall flat. I have no idea how to do this.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

The people who voted for Trump were all racists who are hopeless Gothmog Dec 2016 #1
Rolling out your version of "facts" I see..."are all hopeless." What facts did you use to determine JCanete Dec 2016 #3
Thought many of those deplorables voted for Obama... what does that tell you? InAbLuEsTaTe Jan 2017 #53
When Obama ran in 2008 True_Blue Jan 2017 #59
There are certainly some DUers trying to alienate white working class voters NobodyHere Dec 2016 #2
A segment of the white working class has different priorities than the working class as a whole. Garrett78 Dec 2016 #4
I have family in rust belt states jzodda Dec 2016 #5
How is Trump going to bring back "Union jobs" Proud Liberal Dem Dec 2016 #7
Well I think we already know how he will bring jobs back jzodda Dec 2016 #8
Me too Proud Liberal Dem Dec 2016 #9
There was no openly racist people running against Obama, tribalism works uponit7771 Jan 2017 #55
Bull fucking shit. MicaelS Dec 2016 #6
You aren't the base of the party anymore. Deal with it. Also the WWC is a bullshit meme bettyellen Dec 2016 #11
Um, I'm a POC but I still want working class voters to vote Democrat... Yurovsky Dec 2016 #13
I don't know if you are willing to go into their all bettyellen Dec 2016 #14
I understand your fears... Yurovsky Dec 2016 #15
There is just a huge amount of people staying home and sadly I think it's because of the bettyellen Dec 2016 #16
Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2017 #20
Aww the revenge of the slighted white man, how telling you defend his ego driven vote. Fuck that. bettyellen Jan 2017 #47
Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2017 #48
We lost for a lot of reasons, none being we didn't win over the people who hated Obama and Hillary bettyellen Jan 2017 #49
"wonder why 'you' lose"? revmclaren Jan 2017 #54
Good way to influence people and make friends. No wonder "the message" isn't resonating... dionysus Jan 2017 #64
Are you somehow confused that Dems campaigned against the "WWC"? bettyellen Jan 2017 #67
I'm observing the attitude of posters here, not what was campaigned on. dionysus Jan 2017 #68
If our Party doesn't break it's addiction to corporate money we will not be able to Dustlawyer Jan 2017 #29
The chair isn't installed or "made". lapucelle Jan 2017 #39
I did not say that Hillary was corrupt. Dustlawyer Jan 2017 #46
I think Americans are fine with corruption if they think they get a benefit. That's the lesson. bettyellen Jan 2017 #51
Oh please. Polls showed this was about immigration and terrorism. Not economics. bettyellen Jan 2017 #50
Didn't they alienate themselves by choosing trump? They know he's disgusting in so many ways brush Jan 2017 #36
You mean "fuck off you racist piece of shit, we don't need you!11!" won't dionysus Jan 2017 #66
The Trump voters alienated me, too. hamsterjill Dec 2016 #10
Low information, deplorable dipshits can kiss my ass. nt oasis Dec 2016 #12
Right. Who alienated who? When they started voting for Republicans they abandoned America. baldguy Jan 2017 #17
Great! With our wonderful showing nationwide in the last election we don't need them anyway! jalan48 Jan 2017 #18
The "White Working Class" is racist bullshit. baldguy Jan 2017 #21
Looks like 2018 is going to be even better! jalan48 Jan 2017 #22
Next up: Fighting against the "International Bankers" for that "White Working Class". baldguy Jan 2017 #23
Yep! It's definitely a slippery slope we go down at our own peril. jalan48 Jan 2017 #24
You seem to be rooting for it. baldguy Jan 2017 #25
Rooting? I'm rooting for more Democratic election victories in 2018. How about you? jalan48 Jan 2017 #26
You're rooting for Democratic election victories by joyfully using RW memes that divide Democrats? baldguy Jan 2017 #27
RW memes? Tell me more. jalan48 Jan 2017 #28
Oh, no you're doing fine by yourself. baldguy Jan 2017 #31
You seem angry. Let's focus on 2018. That's what's important. jalan48 Jan 2017 #32
Let's start by stopping the use of RW talking points to attack Democrats, shall we? baldguy Jan 2017 #34
You have mentioned "Right Wing talking points" several times now in reference to my posts. jalan48 Jan 2017 #35
What thread are you in? The phrase "White Working Class" is a racist RW talking point. baldguy Jan 2017 #37
I was talking about Democrats winning elections. I thought we all wanted that. jalan48 Jan 2017 #40
Using RW talking points to attack Democrats doesn't help Democrats win elections. baldguy Jan 2017 #43
I am fuckin angry at RWTP... we should all be no? tia uponit7771 Jan 2017 #56
I agree. It's about the "Working Class". Main Street not wall Street! jalan48 Jan 2017 #58
Really? whathehell Jan 2017 #30
Then you haven't been paying attention. baldguy Jan 2017 #33
I've been paying plenty of attention.. whathehell Jan 2017 #38
The reason it's code is that the working class is not just whites. That classification, when . . . brush Jan 2017 #41
It's more than that. It's a dog whistle to imply persons of color don't work. Garrett78 Jan 2017 #42
YES! That too, very good point brush Jan 2017 #44
Bingo & bingo. baldguy Jan 2017 #45
+1 uponit7771 Jan 2017 #57
So done with them True_Blue Jan 2017 #19
Of course that is alienating. How the media covers this shit is one thing, and in that context your JCanete Jan 2017 #52
I am stunned that so many people overlooked ALL the completely obvious moral flaws in Trump karynnj Jan 2017 #60
You should make this an OP. I appreciate the time and thought that went into your post. Thank you boston bean Jan 2017 #62
Thanks karynnj Jan 2017 #63
Had a friend who told me that any white male who liked guns voted for Trump ismnotwasm Jan 2017 #61
Reading DU, i would say you're very incorrect. You can't call people racist pieces of shit, tell em dionysus Jan 2017 #65
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