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jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
100. Cute. But I stand by what I said.
Tue Jun 19, 2012, 04:39 AM
Jun 2012

And by the by, Occupy was in no way the first to speak openly about income "inequality" (yup, spell checker didn't fix your line "BECAUSE they were the first to speak openly about Income Equality". I assume you would have preferred to have typed "inequality", yes?)

Occupy, at least so far, has been about as effective as everyone else. And gotten a few people hurt, for what I am not sure yet, (Hint: Just being against something is not a goal). I am supportive of the effort, but this is a grown-up world, and grown ups have business plans and goals, or at least a proposal that people don't laugh at. I haven't heard anything from Occupy that is nearly serious enough to affect change at a very high level. I suspect the message is not refined enough, because these demonstrations should be garnering 5 and 10 million people who I know think like you do. They aren't, and that's a problem.

Our trade with other people has brought us language, art, music, dance, other foods, cultures, and inventions that the people here never would have dreamed of. Adoptions of kids. Medicines. Materials we don't have. The list is long. It brought an improved standard of living for hundreds of millions of people who previously only had disagreements, poverty, and war to look forward to. Trade helped some of them, and transformed a few of them into obese people who argue about money. More like Americans. We still have all those ills, of course. Trade was and is not a magic cookie, but it has changed life for the better for many. And if you MUST reduce it to money, we sell a couple hundred billion dollars worth of stuff "out there" every year, much of which is just standard trade, because they need what we got. I am assuming that you don't want to destroy those? (A lot may be in weapons, but maybe they could beat 'em into plowshares or something. Surely they need plowshares somewhere.)

If you can't see the good, and don't see that we are richer for it, your problems include more than your spelling. We are more secure, too. We don't pick up the bat phone and threaten missile strikes, we have people over for dinner so the press can report on how they didn't hug like long-lost cousins. Am I hoping against hope that you can understand we are more secure because of that?

I stand by what I say, we are richer for it, not all trade is bad.

That said, income inequality is an unmitigated evil perpetuated by the fraud of greedy people. Pretty graphs above, but you aren't telling me anything new. ( btw, I don't need your permission, not do I care if I have your approval, to post here, It's an opinion, like yours, but in black and white, on an Internet bulletin board, not a refereed journal). I've quoted all the same stuff. I suspect most people who read this have it more or less memorized by now.

The real problem is that the people who are perpetuating the fraudulent behavior have a plan. The people who are against it don't seem to. Well, other than "they are bad, and need to stop doing it, or we are gonna, uh, march. Or pass some laws. Or throw rocks. Or hit cops in the flashlight with our heads".

Sigh.

It took us about 40 years to get to this point, beginning with Reagan who conned the American people into not living with the short-term pain that Carter proposed to get the economy back under control. (That was back when we had a thing called "Opportunity". Get someone over 50 to tell you about what WPA and CETA and full tuition paid by the government for millions and people building domes inspired by Buckminster Fuller on college campuses did for them or theri life. It was a great time.). From that point on we have been selling off and undermining labor at every turn. To some, capital has always been more valuable than people. But around that time the "neoliberals", AKA greedy bastards, started infecting this country with their disease, and it has reached nearly a fever pitch.

We spent the past 40 years selling off most of what we own, along with much of our human spirit, it seems. Those excesses need to be curbed. But if you bring all that stuff back, who says anyone will buy from us? They can and already are buying all the stuff we would then be making from their current suppliers. It would take us at least 10 years, probably more like 25, and, I don't know, 30, 40 trillion dollars to rebuild WHAT WE HAD IN THE PAST. (And the same bad guys will still be screwing everyone they can).

Some things would work out ok, but I suspect there's a lot of old stuff we can't rebuild. It very likely would not be competitive against the rest of the world at their wages. We would wind up shrinking our markets, selling insurance to each other. You think it's bad now, try that world on. On the other hand, we could create a plan that invests in our people, so our country becomes stronger and more literate, more able to invent the future, more able to battle bad guys,and then we would have, again, things other people want. It's probably gonna be just as expensive, but look at what we did with the GI bill after WWII, Korea, Vietnam. We didn't wall ourselves off, we engaged the world in rebuilding, and began to educate our people to go to the moon. We invented the Internet. That flush feeling of having money in our pockets came from that investment we made in people, and infrastructure, and it paid off. In spades.

We forgot about investing in people. We started selling all the wealth created by all the labor, and taught by example that the only value in something was what it could be sold for. The greedy bastards know this well, and they only care about one thing. Assets. They are not scared of protest parades, force. They buy politicians and cops for sport. The only thing greedy bastards care about is assets. (Btw, the reason I like cooperatives - if you and some friends can put something together you can own the assets. And you don't have to sell them if you don't want to, even if they would make you fabulously wealthy at the expense of a lot of other people).

I think Occupy needs to affect those bigger issues.

The game is rigged. Nearly every action that I have seen people take is framed by our opponents. And they are taking a greater percentage of the money every day. People can walk away from jobs, march in the streets, put up tariffs, yada, yada, yada, but that is still the game played by the opponent, and seems suspiciously like trying to re-create an imaginary past. (That last thing is a favorite pastime of loser Rethugs, btw).

Where is the movement toward the future? Where is organizing, and teaching people to be autonomous and smart and strong enough to beat those people AT SOMEONES ELSE'S GAME?

de La Botie wrote " you can deliver yourselves if you try, not by taking action, but merely by willing to be free. Resolve to serve
no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break into pieces?"

I'm big fan of the "spirit" of Occupy, (I went to our local one, provided some support) but not of the behavior I have seen so far. We need demand, but perhaps a new way to achieve it. There are sustainable, practical ways to move forward, such as co-ops, sustainable agriculture, throwing away the banking model for teaching and replacing it with more experiential learning and philosophy, things that would take the game away from the greedy bastards. I don't hear about nearly enough of that, if Occupy is working at that level.

What's the plan, Stan?





And can you name one thing about globalization that has been positive? nt Sarah Ibarruri May 2012 #1
Millions of people in Asia and Africa are now middle class. Bill Clinton wrote in his book that applegrove May 2012 #4
At the expense of the impoverishment of millions. Not good enough. Sarah Ibarruri May 2012 #5
The people who are impoverished are the subsistence farmers who face famine. That is a tough life. applegrove May 2012 #9
Capitalism and globalism consist of the rich taking the lion's share and leaving Sarah Ibarruri May 2012 #12
There is no requirement for participation pipoman May 2012 #13
No. Democracy takes ahold and people demand adequate taxes on the rich. Same thing Occupy is applegrove May 2012 #17
Not without the right to demand anything, pipoman May 2012 #19
Free trade as established by our trade agreements destroys democracy -- our own JDPriestly Jun 2012 #67
+1 OrwellwasRight Jun 2012 #76
totally agreed! donheld Aug 2012 #137
I agree with JDPriestly above. girl gone mad Jul 2012 #124
They move off the subsistence farms as American farmers did back in the 1930s JDPriestly May 2012 #20
+1 limpyhobbler May 2012 #23
That is the same argument Mi$$ Rmoney and the Teabaggers use. Got another? jtuck004 Jun 2012 #69
It is all part of the same neoliberal economic model. OrwellwasRight Jun 2012 #72
'We', who is 'we' who are a 'a lot richer'? We have the largest income inequality sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #99
Cute. But I stand by what I said. jtuck004 Jun 2012 #100
As I said, you will need more than your opinion sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #101
Good luck with your crusade. Sounds like you got it all figured out. n/t jtuck004 Jun 2012 #102
No, I don't have it all figured out. I just know the facts, figuring it all out is going to take a sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #108
Dictionaries and people on Jeopardy are full of facts too. Doesn't mean they accomplish much. jtuck004 Jun 2012 #109
We've all seen the egos served and their obscene bank accounts, which is why OWS sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #110
Ah, you think it takes money to be ego driven. jtuck004 Jun 2012 #112
All goals set by Occupy have been accomplished. sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #113
Well, sounds like you are suitably impressed. good luck. n/t jtuck004 Jun 2012 #114
I'm always impressed by success! sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #115
I'll be looking for other accomplishments beyond self-aggrandizement. Thanks. n/t jtuck004 Jun 2012 #117
I think you already missed them. sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #118
Lol, cute deflection. I have potatoes to feed, more important. But you don't need to have launched a jtuck004 Jun 2012 #120
Lol, nothing is a waste of time. I learned a lot, so thank you for that. sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #121
Yeah, what you said. And u asked what I have done. Today I saw two little girls running jtuck004 Jun 2012 #122
OWS shouldn't take credit for BoA changing it's debit card fees Chathamization Jun 2012 #119
Aproaching? We're there nadinbrzezinski Jun 2012 #107
and now millions of people in America who used to be middle class 2pooped2pop May 2012 #24
applegrove has no response to that. THIS is why anti-globalism is ascendant in America. Zalatix Jun 2012 #52
You have nailed it. truedelphi Jun 2012 #57
Because the rich have taken over in the usa with tax cuts and economic bubbles that they make money applegrove Jun 2012 #73
At the expense of the United States losing its sovereignty, JDPriestly Jun 2012 #65
trade does not stop wars OrwellwasRight Jun 2012 #70
That is what I take issue with. Demonstrators will say they are anti-capitalist when they mean applegrove Jun 2012 #71
But they aren't just "anti pure capitalism" OrwellwasRight Jun 2012 #75
But Obama is for trade. If you say you are antiglobal trade you cut out a whole host of people in applegrove Jun 2012 #78
Yes, Obama is for trade. That doesn't make him right. OrwellwasRight Jun 2012 #82
They are anti-CORRUPTION sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #111
I can think of several positive things. Zalatix Jun 2012 #54
Probably not.... movonne May 2012 #2
I've been hearing of the imminent demise of Occupy since the day it started MannyGoldstein May 2012 #3
Occupy is the only truth-telling organization today. nt Sarah Ibarruri May 2012 #6
That's funny!!! greytdemocrat May 2012 #26
Clearly you know of more organizations speaking truth to power? Care to share? nt Sarah Ibarruri May 2012 #41
+1 emulatorloo May 2012 #7
Is this your mission here? The daily slam? Warren Stupidity May 2012 #8
I'm objecting to the change of focus from inequality onto all manner of leftist causes. I have a applegrove May 2012 #11
You're just objecting. Nothing has changed. Warren Stupidity May 2012 #15
Occupy wasn't anti-NATO or anti global. It was anti-power in the hands of a few - same as Arab applegrove May 2012 #16
nato is the militarized arm of the 1% 2pooped2pop May 2012 #25
Absolutely correct - and anyone who is not questioning unfettered capitalism TBF May 2012 #33
I doubt many people who are offended by OWS UnrepentantLiberal May 2012 #30
EXCUSE ME, drynberg Jun 2012 #56
I am a big supporter of Occupy. I want to see it become a permanent world wide movement to fight the applegrove May 2012 #18
I understand ur concerns 2pooped2pop May 2012 #27
What type of "inequality" are you seeking to fight? TBF May 2012 #34
The rich buying the government. A lack of taxes on the rich. Credit card legislation that helps applegrove May 2012 #35
And you've seen what happened to the world in the past 50 years TBF May 2012 #36
You are talking about what has happened to America in the last 50 years. Other countries, like mine applegrove May 2012 #37
This is a student protest in Montreal - YESTERDAY - you're doing smashingly. nt TBF May 2012 #38
Students in Quebec don't want to pay $3000 dollars a term for University. They are applegrove May 2012 #39
I have a feeling your definition of "lucky" and mine vary widely. TBF May 2012 #40
why are so many Canadians obssessed with American political forums? girl gone mad Jul 2012 #125
There is only a housing bubble in Toronto and Vancouver (two cities that have had high housing applegrove Jul 2012 #129
+ my household. n/t truedelphi Jun 2012 #61
No, pipoman May 2012 #10
Bull shit. Nt xchrom May 2012 #14
They're making one fatal mistake - they're not running anyone kysrsoze May 2012 #21
Occupy can neither support nor engage the very system causing all of our trouble. Fire Walk With Me May 2012 #42
Getting involved in elections Chathamization May 2012 #47
None of them are even discussing taking back the trillions upon trillions of dollars given to banks Fire Walk With Me May 2012 #48
It's insane Chathamization May 2012 #49
Yes on all counts. Fire Walk With Me May 2012 #50
In San diego alone we had three candidates for congress in three different districts nadinbrzezinski Jun 2012 #106
This movement would destroy itself, if it were to do as you suggest. However, there are OWS sabrina 1 Jun 2012 #116
Instead of anti-globalization, think alter-globalization. We want FAIR trade. limpyhobbler May 2012 #22
Then OWS should be clear that they want to alter globalization not end it. And they should be clear applegrove May 2012 #44
The movement has people with diverse views who agree on some common actions. limpyhobbler May 2012 #45
Was there ever? tama Aug 2012 #138
In the sense the Capitalism includes PROFIT ... GeorgeGist May 2012 #28
IMO, your Third Way neo-liberal 1% plutarchy supporting propaganda is not Zorra May 2012 #29
My positions are like Obamas on world trade and nato. applegrove May 2012 #31
Ah. I get it. That's why you framed the debate so well right in the subject line of your OP. Zorra May 2012 #32
Your positions are like that of the Koch's and the US Chamber of Commerce. Zalatix Jun 2012 #53
No they are not. They are like Obama's. Like the vast majority of people in the USA. Occupy touched applegrove Jun 2012 #79
Yes, your ideas ARE aligned with the US Chamber of Commerce. Zalatix Jun 2012 #83
My ideas are the same as Obama's. That is who I follow. The right wing wins if Occupy becomes a applegrove Jun 2012 #85
Nope, your views are in line with the US Chamber of Commerce. Not Obama. Zalatix Jun 2012 #86
I'm sorry but I follow Obama on trade policy. You can say 'nope' all you want. I know the right applegrove Jun 2012 #87
I know you're wrong. Obama signed a tariff law. You oppose tariffs. You know you're wrong. Zalatix Jun 2012 #88
I don't oppose tariffs. I'm for tariffs on chinese goods if they are messing with their dollar. applegrove Jun 2012 #91
So your OP was an attack on a straw man? Zalatix Jun 2012 #92
Like Bill Clinton said, America is winning on trade except for China and the middle east. The applegrove Jun 2012 #93
Do you support Obama's 2008 position on trade, or his 2012 position? limpyhobbler Jun 2012 #98
If your position on trade is the same as Obama's OrwellwasRight Jun 2012 #74
I totally agree money is corrupting politics and the 1% have too much power. Why I want to see applegrove Jun 2012 #80
How do you think you can fight that OrwellwasRight Jun 2012 #81
Thank you greatly for making this apparent to those truedelphi Jun 2012 #58
Against corrupt capitalism, certainly, and has been so from the beginning. Fire Walk With Me May 2012 #43
World trade and capitalism are the primary tools of the 1%. Hatchling May 2012 #46
Considering that the majority of Americans are AGAINST offshoring, Occupy will win BIG on this one. Zalatix Jun 2012 #51
Stand with you in Solidarity of Occupy. n/t truedelphi Jun 2012 #59
Without inequality there is no capitalism. Inequality drives the system. TheKentuckian Jun 2012 #55
You seem to have ignored a most vital truedelphi Jun 2012 #60
THERE ARE OVER 70 MILLION DEMOCRATS IN THIS COUNTRY. secondwind Jun 2012 #62
As a left-libertarian, I'm opposed to Occupy being co-opted by Old Left and various Old Left groups Leopolds Ghost Jun 2012 #63
Opposing trade agreements is wise. These trade agreements are a cover for the JDPriestly Jun 2012 #64
Bill Clinton pointed out in his book that the only trade the USA was not doing well on in balance applegrove Jun 2012 #66
Do we have trade agreements with China or Opec Oil countries that bind us JDPriestly Jun 2012 #68
He has since then admitted that his idea that we could save Haiti through trade OrwellwasRight Jun 2012 #77
This is the truth about free trade - it's all about keeping Chinese and Haitians poor. Zalatix Jun 2012 #84
Wow. That's disgusting. OrwellwasRight Jun 2012 #89
The answer is that we fight against capitalism globally. TBF Jun 2012 #94
We would have supported them by fighting for an $8/hour minimum wage in Haiti. Zalatix Jun 2012 #95
What crap. Capitalism is the problem. Socialism is the solution. Odin2005 Jun 2012 #90
It depends on the brand of Capitalism egbertowillies Jun 2012 #96
Then why don't they call it 'casino capitalism' on the signs. It alienates OWS from part applegrove Jun 2012 #97
Capitalism As We Know It tama Aug 2012 #139
I highly recommend you become VERY FAMILIAR with the term HARMONIZATION nadinbrzezinski Jun 2012 #103
I'm not denying trade with China is bad. They are messing with their currency and should face applegrove Jun 2012 #104
It's not china nadinbrzezinski Jun 2012 #105
Understand Remember Jun 2012 #123
I'm With You on This On the Road Jul 2012 #126
It's crucial to distinguish kinds of "globalism." snot Jul 2012 #127
Every single reply in this thread to the OP is OFF TOPIC. Speck Tater Jul 2012 #128
Occupy will lose some of its support, not most of it. But it was those supporters that had woken up applegrove Jul 2012 #130
Doesn't matter. Chan790 Jul 2012 #131
Also rw libertarians tama Aug 2012 #140
This promises to be an erudite conversation! JackRiddler Jul 2012 #132
My point is the middle class came together over inequlity during that occupy fall. Don't we want to applegrove Jul 2012 #133
Your terms are seriously skewed. JackRiddler Jul 2012 #134
My terms are not skewed. I'm make an observation. Occupy appealed to over 50% of Americans applegrove Jul 2012 #135
91% of Democrats and 87% of Republicans oppose offshoring. Zalatix Aug 2012 #136
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