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Occupy Underground
In reply to the discussion: So now Occupy is against world trade and capitalism? They will lose support of the 50+% of the 99% [View all]jtuck004
(15,882 posts)100. Cute. But I stand by what I said.
And by the by, Occupy was in no way the first to speak openly about income "inequality" (yup, spell checker didn't fix your line "BECAUSE they were the first to speak openly about Income Equality". I assume you would have preferred to have typed "inequality", yes?)
Occupy, at least so far, has been about as effective as everyone else. And gotten a few people hurt, for what I am not sure yet, (Hint: Just being against something is not a goal). I am supportive of the effort, but this is a grown-up world, and grown ups have business plans and goals, or at least a proposal that people don't laugh at. I haven't heard anything from Occupy that is nearly serious enough to affect change at a very high level. I suspect the message is not refined enough, because these demonstrations should be garnering 5 and 10 million people who I know think like you do. They aren't, and that's a problem.
Our trade with other people has brought us language, art, music, dance, other foods, cultures, and inventions that the people here never would have dreamed of. Adoptions of kids. Medicines. Materials we don't have. The list is long. It brought an improved standard of living for hundreds of millions of people who previously only had disagreements, poverty, and war to look forward to. Trade helped some of them, and transformed a few of them into obese people who argue about money. More like Americans. We still have all those ills, of course. Trade was and is not a magic cookie, but it has changed life for the better for many. And if you MUST reduce it to money, we sell a couple hundred billion dollars worth of stuff "out there" every year, much of which is just standard trade, because they need what we got. I am assuming that you don't want to destroy those? (A lot may be in weapons, but maybe they could beat 'em into plowshares or something. Surely they need plowshares somewhere.)
If you can't see the good, and don't see that we are richer for it, your problems include more than your spelling. We are more secure, too. We don't pick up the bat phone and threaten missile strikes, we have people over for dinner so the press can report on how they didn't hug like long-lost cousins. Am I hoping against hope that you can understand we are more secure because of that?
I stand by what I say, we are richer for it, not all trade is bad.
That said, income inequality is an unmitigated evil perpetuated by the fraud of greedy people. Pretty graphs above, but you aren't telling me anything new. ( btw, I don't need your permission, not do I care if I have your approval, to post here, It's an opinion, like yours, but in black and white, on an Internet bulletin board, not a refereed journal). I've quoted all the same stuff. I suspect most people who read this have it more or less memorized by now.
The real problem is that the people who are perpetuating the fraudulent behavior have a plan. The people who are against it don't seem to. Well, other than "they are bad, and need to stop doing it, or we are gonna, uh, march. Or pass some laws. Or throw rocks. Or hit cops in the flashlight with our heads".
Sigh.
It took us about 40 years to get to this point, beginning with Reagan who conned the American people into not living with the short-term pain that Carter proposed to get the economy back under control. (That was back when we had a thing called "Opportunity". Get someone over 50 to tell you about what WPA and CETA and full tuition paid by the government for millions and people building domes inspired by Buckminster Fuller on college campuses did for them or theri life. It was a great time.). From that point on we have been selling off and undermining labor at every turn. To some, capital has always been more valuable than people. But around that time the "neoliberals", AKA greedy bastards, started infecting this country with their disease, and it has reached nearly a fever pitch.
We spent the past 40 years selling off most of what we own, along with much of our human spirit, it seems. Those excesses need to be curbed. But if you bring all that stuff back, who says anyone will buy from us? They can and already are buying all the stuff we would then be making from their current suppliers. It would take us at least 10 years, probably more like 25, and, I don't know, 30, 40 trillion dollars to rebuild WHAT WE HAD IN THE PAST. (And the same bad guys will still be screwing everyone they can).
Some things would work out ok, but I suspect there's a lot of old stuff we can't rebuild. It very likely would not be competitive against the rest of the world at their wages. We would wind up shrinking our markets, selling insurance to each other. You think it's bad now, try that world on. On the other hand, we could create a plan that invests in our people, so our country becomes stronger and more literate, more able to invent the future, more able to battle bad guys,and then we would have, again, things other people want. It's probably gonna be just as expensive, but look at what we did with the GI bill after WWII, Korea, Vietnam. We didn't wall ourselves off, we engaged the world in rebuilding, and began to educate our people to go to the moon. We invented the Internet. That flush feeling of having money in our pockets came from that investment we made in people, and infrastructure, and it paid off. In spades.
We forgot about investing in people. We started selling all the wealth created by all the labor, and taught by example that the only value in something was what it could be sold for. The greedy bastards know this well, and they only care about one thing. Assets. They are not scared of protest parades, force. They buy politicians and cops for sport. The only thing greedy bastards care about is assets. (Btw, the reason I like cooperatives - if you and some friends can put something together you can own the assets. And you don't have to sell them if you don't want to, even if they would make you fabulously wealthy at the expense of a lot of other people).
I think Occupy needs to affect those bigger issues.
The game is rigged. Nearly every action that I have seen people take is framed by our opponents. And they are taking a greater percentage of the money every day. People can walk away from jobs, march in the streets, put up tariffs, yada, yada, yada, but that is still the game played by the opponent, and seems suspiciously like trying to re-create an imaginary past. (That last thing is a favorite pastime of loser Rethugs, btw).
Where is the movement toward the future? Where is organizing, and teaching people to be autonomous and smart and strong enough to beat those people AT SOMEONES ELSE'S GAME?
de La Botie wrote " you can deliver yourselves if you try, not by taking action, but merely by willing to be free. Resolve to serve
no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break into pieces?"
I'm big fan of the "spirit" of Occupy, (I went to our local one, provided some support) but not of the behavior I have seen so far. We need demand, but perhaps a new way to achieve it. There are sustainable, practical ways to move forward, such as co-ops, sustainable agriculture, throwing away the banking model for teaching and replacing it with more experiential learning and philosophy, things that would take the game away from the greedy bastards. I don't hear about nearly enough of that, if Occupy is working at that level.
What's the plan, Stan?
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So now Occupy is against world trade and capitalism? They will lose support of the 50+% of the 99% [View all]
applegrove
May 2012
OP
And can you name one thing about globalization that has been positive? nt
Sarah Ibarruri
May 2012
#1
Millions of people in Asia and Africa are now middle class. Bill Clinton wrote in his book that
applegrove
May 2012
#4
The people who are impoverished are the subsistence farmers who face famine. That is a tough life.
applegrove
May 2012
#9
Capitalism and globalism consist of the rich taking the lion's share and leaving
Sarah Ibarruri
May 2012
#12
No. Democracy takes ahold and people demand adequate taxes on the rich. Same thing Occupy is
applegrove
May 2012
#17
Free trade as established by our trade agreements destroys democracy -- our own
JDPriestly
Jun 2012
#67
They move off the subsistence farms as American farmers did back in the 1930s
JDPriestly
May 2012
#20
'We', who is 'we' who are a 'a lot richer'? We have the largest income inequality
sabrina 1
Jun 2012
#99
No, I don't have it all figured out. I just know the facts, figuring it all out is going to take a
sabrina 1
Jun 2012
#108
Dictionaries and people on Jeopardy are full of facts too. Doesn't mean they accomplish much.
jtuck004
Jun 2012
#109
We've all seen the egos served and their obscene bank accounts, which is why OWS
sabrina 1
Jun 2012
#110
I'll be looking for other accomplishments beyond self-aggrandizement. Thanks. n/t
jtuck004
Jun 2012
#117
Lol, cute deflection. I have potatoes to feed, more important. But you don't need to have launched a
jtuck004
Jun 2012
#120
Yeah, what you said. And u asked what I have done. Today I saw two little girls running
jtuck004
Jun 2012
#122
applegrove has no response to that. THIS is why anti-globalism is ascendant in America.
Zalatix
Jun 2012
#52
Because the rich have taken over in the usa with tax cuts and economic bubbles that they make money
applegrove
Jun 2012
#73
That is what I take issue with. Demonstrators will say they are anti-capitalist when they mean
applegrove
Jun 2012
#71
But Obama is for trade. If you say you are antiglobal trade you cut out a whole host of people in
applegrove
Jun 2012
#78
I've been hearing of the imminent demise of Occupy since the day it started
MannyGoldstein
May 2012
#3
Clearly you know of more organizations speaking truth to power? Care to share? nt
Sarah Ibarruri
May 2012
#41
I'm objecting to the change of focus from inequality onto all manner of leftist causes. I have a
applegrove
May 2012
#11
Occupy wasn't anti-NATO or anti global. It was anti-power in the hands of a few - same as Arab
applegrove
May 2012
#16
I am a big supporter of Occupy. I want to see it become a permanent world wide movement to fight the
applegrove
May 2012
#18
The rich buying the government. A lack of taxes on the rich. Credit card legislation that helps
applegrove
May 2012
#35
You are talking about what has happened to America in the last 50 years. Other countries, like mine
applegrove
May 2012
#37
Students in Quebec don't want to pay $3000 dollars a term for University. They are
applegrove
May 2012
#39
There is only a housing bubble in Toronto and Vancouver (two cities that have had high housing
applegrove
Jul 2012
#129
Occupy can neither support nor engage the very system causing all of our trouble.
Fire Walk With Me
May 2012
#42
None of them are even discussing taking back the trillions upon trillions of dollars given to banks
Fire Walk With Me
May 2012
#48
In San diego alone we had three candidates for congress in three different districts
nadinbrzezinski
Jun 2012
#106
This movement would destroy itself, if it were to do as you suggest. However, there are OWS
sabrina 1
Jun 2012
#116
Instead of anti-globalization, think alter-globalization. We want FAIR trade.
limpyhobbler
May 2012
#22
Then OWS should be clear that they want to alter globalization not end it. And they should be clear
applegrove
May 2012
#44
The movement has people with diverse views who agree on some common actions.
limpyhobbler
May 2012
#45
Ah. I get it. That's why you framed the debate so well right in the subject line of your OP.
Zorra
May 2012
#32
No they are not. They are like Obama's. Like the vast majority of people in the USA. Occupy touched
applegrove
Jun 2012
#79
My ideas are the same as Obama's. That is who I follow. The right wing wins if Occupy becomes a
applegrove
Jun 2012
#85
I'm sorry but I follow Obama on trade policy. You can say 'nope' all you want. I know the right
applegrove
Jun 2012
#87
I know you're wrong. Obama signed a tariff law. You oppose tariffs. You know you're wrong.
Zalatix
Jun 2012
#88
I don't oppose tariffs. I'm for tariffs on chinese goods if they are messing with their dollar.
applegrove
Jun 2012
#91
Like Bill Clinton said, America is winning on trade except for China and the middle east. The
applegrove
Jun 2012
#93
I totally agree money is corrupting politics and the 1% have too much power. Why I want to see
applegrove
Jun 2012
#80
Against corrupt capitalism, certainly, and has been so from the beginning.
Fire Walk With Me
May 2012
#43
Considering that the majority of Americans are AGAINST offshoring, Occupy will win BIG on this one.
Zalatix
Jun 2012
#51
As a left-libertarian, I'm opposed to Occupy being co-opted by Old Left and various Old Left groups
Leopolds Ghost
Jun 2012
#63
Opposing trade agreements is wise. These trade agreements are a cover for the
JDPriestly
Jun 2012
#64
Bill Clinton pointed out in his book that the only trade the USA was not doing well on in balance
applegrove
Jun 2012
#66
He has since then admitted that his idea that we could save Haiti through trade
OrwellwasRight
Jun 2012
#77
This is the truth about free trade - it's all about keeping Chinese and Haitians poor.
Zalatix
Jun 2012
#84
Then why don't they call it 'casino capitalism' on the signs. It alienates OWS from part
applegrove
Jun 2012
#97
I highly recommend you become VERY FAMILIAR with the term HARMONIZATION
nadinbrzezinski
Jun 2012
#103
I'm not denying trade with China is bad. They are messing with their currency and should face
applegrove
Jun 2012
#104
Occupy will lose some of its support, not most of it. But it was those supporters that had woken up
applegrove
Jul 2012
#130
My point is the middle class came together over inequlity during that occupy fall. Don't we want to
applegrove
Jul 2012
#133
My terms are not skewed. I'm make an observation. Occupy appealed to over 50% of Americans
applegrove
Jul 2012
#135