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Philosophy

In reply to the discussion: Do rights exist? [View all]

Fortinbras Armstrong

(4,473 posts)
33. "Whether you know it or not, among the French and Germans, right means law."
Sun Nov 30, 2014, 10:04 AM
Nov 2014

That is the ideal, even among the French and the Germans (and among some other people as well -- I am familiar with the concept). And whether you know it or not, the correct spelling of the man you refer to name is "Abelard". In his Collationes ("Comparisons&quot , he wrote

So far as justice is concerned, it is not just the bounds of natural justice but also those of positive justice that ought not to be crossed. One sort of law is called "natural," the other "positive." Natural law is what the reason naturally innate in all people urges should be put into effect, and therefore remains the same among all people: such as, to worship God, to love one's parents, to punish the wicked, and to do whatever is necessary in the sense that without them no other merits whatever will be sufficient.

To positive justice, however, belongs what is set up by humans so as to preserve usefulness and worth more safely and increase them. It rests either on custom alone or on written authority. An example of positive justice is provided by the sort of punishments given in retribution and the procedures of judges in examining accusations which have been made. Among some, there is trial by combat or hot irons are used, among others an oath that, when we have to live among whoever it may be, we hold the laws they have set up (as I mentioned) just as we hold the natural laws.

The laws which you called divine--the Old Testament and the New Testament--also pass down some commands which are, as it were, natural (you call them "moral commands&quot , such as to love God and your neighbor, not to commit adultery, not to steal, and some commands which belong, as it were, to positive justice. These commands apply to certain people at a certain time, like circumcision for the Jews and baptism for you and many other commands which you describe as "figural." Moreover, the Roman pontiffs and church councils issue new decrees every day or dispense various indulgences, according to which, you say, what used to be lawful becomes illicit and vice versa--as if God put it in their power to make things good or evil which were not previously be their decrees and indulgences, and their authority could pass judgment on the law of nature.


(Believe it or else, I happen to know the medieval theologians fairly well, especially Aquinas) Abelard clearly distinguishes between natural law (or natural rights) and positive law (or positive rights). The other distinction is that between malum prohibitum and malum in se. Though he does not use those terms, he clearly recognizes that the positive law can make things once lawful, illicit, and make things once unlawful, licit. Abelard hints at the possibility of abuse: that the human authority may pass positive law that is not in line with the natural law.

We can understand how morals work and never create a moral person through reason. You keep saying that, without the slightest attempt to support it. It is, however, nothing more than your opinion. As I said in the other thread, I KNOW that, in my case at least, one can make a person more moral through reason. I suppose that one could not take an entirely amoral person and make him or her into a wholly moral person through reason, although one could certainly teach such a person enough that he or she could fake it convincingly.

Now try to realize, that in its natural state, morality only referrers to the relationship to ones own society and people. Where does this flight of fancy come from?. First, "ethics" comes from the Greek ἦθος ("ethos&quot , which means "custom, habit". "Ethnic" from ἐθνικός ("ethnikos&quot , which translates fairly well as "people". Two completely different words. Second, as C. S. Lewis remarks somewhere, if you believe that all moral codes are different, you should be locked up in a room with all the various codes, and you will quickly be bored with how basically the same they are.
Do rights exist? [View all] discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2013 OP
Rights, organizations (including governments), human laws, ZombieHorde Aug 2013 #1
Can I infer... discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2013 #3
Yes for laws and fairness, but no for love and anger. nt ZombieHorde Aug 2013 #5
I'm unable to understand what system you have... discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2013 #6
Ha! ZombieHorde Aug 2013 #13
So then... discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2013 #14
I don't think so. nt ZombieHorde Aug 2013 #15
I don't think so. delrem Nov 2013 #22
This message was self-deleted by its author Sweeney Nov 2014 #29
Your subject line isn't true. bye. delrem Nov 2014 #31
This message was self-deleted by its author Sweeney Nov 2014 #32
Rights are attributes of people. rrneck Aug 2013 #2
I'm having a bit of confusion... discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2013 #4
I would rephrase if I could think of a better way to say it. rrneck Aug 2013 #7
I guess I'm having some trouble with this: discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2013 #10
Natural and legal rights rrneck Aug 2013 #11
I'm good with that. discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2013 #12
I'd say it depends very much on which school of ethics you subscribe to. Fortinbras Armstrong Aug 2013 #8
I'd suggest that... discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2013 #9
This message was self-deleted by its author Sweeney Nov 2014 #30
"Whether you know it or not, among the French and Germans, right means law." Fortinbras Armstrong Nov 2014 #33
This message was self-deleted by its author Sweeney Nov 2014 #35
For at least the second time, THE PARAGRAPH IS YOUR FRIEND. Fortinbras Armstrong Nov 2014 #36
This message was self-deleted by its author Sweeney Dec 2014 #37
OK, I shall introduce myself to you. Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2014 #38
This message was self-deleted by its author Sweeney Dec 2014 #39
I'm afraid I have some major disagreements with you. Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2014 #40
This message was self-deleted by its author Sweeney Dec 2014 #41
"I'm afraid that I ..." Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2014 #42
This message was self-deleted by its author Sweeney Dec 2014 #43
I used an idiom that I'm sure you've heard at least a thousand times Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2014 #44
This message was self-deleted by its author Sweeney Dec 2014 #45
Being polite is not cant, nor is it being dishonest. Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2014 #46
This message was self-deleted by its author Sweeney Dec 2014 #47
I think I see our basic problem Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2014 #48
This message was self-deleted by its author Sweeney Dec 2014 #49
This message was self-deleted by its author Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2013 #16
I believe that the obligation... discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2013 #17
Don't human rights have to be recognized and asserted to exist? delrem Sep 2013 #18
re: "...the right for an individual to be treated equally under the rule of law." discntnt_irny_srcsm Sep 2013 #19
Correct. It's an *obligation* of gov't. delrem Nov 2013 #20
War is uncivilized discntnt_irny_srcsm Nov 2013 #21
I really appreciate DU. n/t delrem Nov 2013 #23
This message was self-deleted by its author Sweeney Nov 2014 #27
This message was self-deleted by its author Sweeney Nov 2014 #34
Do rights exist? CloptonHavers Feb 2014 #24
After some reading... discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2014 #25
This message was self-deleted by its author Sweeney Nov 2014 #28
This message was self-deleted by its author Sweeney Nov 2014 #26
Rights are Subordinated to... PavelKO Oct 2016 #50
As is generally said, 'The winners get to write history.' discntnt_irny_srcsm Oct 2016 #51
Message auto-removed Name removed May 2017 #52
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