Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

General Discussion

Showing Original Post only (View all)

Cirsium

(2,340 posts)
Sun Dec 8, 2024, 05:40 PM Dec 2024

Is a Grand Realignment Coming? [View all]

There may be a grand realignment of the parties coming, as has occurred in the past - in the 1850's, 1910's for example. That grand realignment has already happened with the electorate. County by county, across the nation, the higher the average income, the better Harris did; the lower the average income, the better Trump did. That is a stunning reversal. It was the other way around for 100 years. Something has to give.

The more Democrats wooed the upper middle class professionals, the more they alienated blue collar folks. That opened the door for right wing populism, as historically has always been the case.

Back in 2008 I was amazed at the support in farm country for Obama, in the fields, in the packing houses, in the processing facilities, on the loading docks. Why was that? Obama promised to go after the banks and to save the home owners, and he promised to give people access to decent healthcare. Those things did not happen, and the resentment and frustration has been percolating ever since. The upper 20% has done well, yes, but too many people have been left behind. Wonky talk about policy, or scolding voters for being stupid or whatever - which happens right here every hour - is just salt in the wound. The stock market has done well, the home values in the upscale neighborhoods have increased. More salt in the wound.

The overwhelming sentiment in 2008 was a desperate desire that someone would shake things up, go after the fat cats, and give the working people a fair shake. Obama promised to do that. It was only after those promised were broken that people turned to MAGA. I am not talking about Musk and the billionaires, not talking about the right wing nutjobs and white supremacists, the "militia" brown shirts. Those don't represent enough people to win elections. The Republicans needed a lot of people who thought "what have we got to lose?" in order to win. Things had to be really bad for people to think "what have I got to lose?" Things are really bad. Housing, healthcare, transportation, food, utilities are all more and more difficult for people to afford.

The Democratic party has become the party of the upper 20%, by the upper 20%, for upper 20%. That described the Republican party a generation ago. Meanwhile, blue collar workers have drifted to the Republicans out of desperation, because there is nowhere else to go. Many Democrats cannot accept that, because they do not understand the suffering and resentment of the bottom half of the population, do not see how tone deaf the Democratic party messaging is, and do not see how compromised and conservative the party has become in all areas except a couple of "culture war" issues. Worse, Democrats right here every day mock and ridicule the blue collar people and dismiss their suffering. On the "culture war" issues the right wing has defined the terms of the debate and controls the messaging.

On top of all of that the party leadership has allowed the right wingers to get almost complete over the national political discussion - social media, cable, streaming. I was startled to see when I searched for "news" in Roku's "app store" that there were a dozen or more right wing channels, including Charlie Kirk, Steve Brannon, et al, all advertised as "fair" and "honest" news. Then we have the dozens of religious channels on cable and satellite, many of which are thinly disguised right wing propaganda outlets, along with the 3 or 4 far right alternatives to Fox. Then we have Sinclair broadcasting monopolizing local TV news, and the thousands of right wing AM radio stations.

Where is there any messaging to counter all of that? Well, there’s MSNBC, where half of the guests or more are always Republicans. Free Speech TV? Progress Radio? NPR? Social media strongly favors right wing content, so we are drowned out there. Yet we mock voters for being poorly informed and brainwashed? Of course they are.

We hear “they are voting against their own interests!” No they aren’t. Their interests are not on the ballot and they don’t trust the promises anymore. They voted to blow it all up, in desperation.

But the Democrats insist on ignoring all of that and going after that mythical suburban swing voter, and appealing to the educated upper middle class professional people. Senator Schumer: “For every blue-collar Democrat we lose in western Pennsylvania, we will pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs in Philadelphia, and you can repeat that in Ohio and Illinois and Wisconsin.”

The Democrats’ Risky Pursuit of Suburban Republicans

The Democratic Party’s fetishization of the suburban voter has myriad roots. These are desirable voters, in theory, because they are more likely to vote in midterms than more traditional Democratic constituencies like the young, the poor, and people of color; they’re also more likely to be substantial donors. And for Democratic centrists, middle-of-the-road Republicans are also ideal voters since they are unlikely to demand large government programs.

The Democrats have pursued suburban Republican voters since long before 2016, to little avail. “Democrats have dreamed for years of peeling away the rings around major cities, separating suburban voters who favor conservative tax and economic policies from a Republican Party that also champions harder-right positions on abortion, guns and gay rights,” the Times reported. “So far, that effort has gained Democrats few seats.” The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee reportedly found that in the 2014 and 2016 elections, suburban voters were “inching away from Republicans, but too slowly to flip many seats.”

The Democrats’ Risky Pursuit of Suburban Republicans

A recent Substack entry from Lucas Kunz asks "Why do people keep voting against their own self-interest?"

Excerpts:
If we think about this question from the perspective of the voters it references, the people who are “voting against their own self-interest,” this question—even if asked entirely in earnest—doesn’t come off as a question. They don’t believe they are voting against their self-interest, so it comes off as a statement: that they are stupid, and that the questioner knows more about what’s good for them than they do.

Even if the presumption in this question is true, that someone would have a better life if they voted for a certain candidate, there’s no way forward from this question that comes to a mutual understanding. Because it comes from a place of superiority.

That may be insurmountable. The idea that to be a Democrat is to be smarter, more knowledgeable, more compassionate is deeply intertwined with people’s sense of self-worth and their identity. Of course those of us who are smarter — thanks to genetic roulette — or more knowledgeable — thanks to fortunate backgrounds and more leisure time - are smarter and more knowledgeable. It doesn’t take a smart knowledgeable person to figure that out. But more often than not we are employed to advance the interests of management, not those of Labor. For those services rendered we get higher salaries and more perks and social status. Blue collar workers increasingly see liberals as tools for management, and not without cause. Those attitudes bleed over into Democratic party politics with devastating effect, as every alert and honest observer should now be able to see clearly.

When I got back from Iraq in 2009, I spent a large part of 2010 and 2011 trying to keep Marines in their homes who were illegally foreclosed upon by the same big banks that the government had just bailed out. Banks and bankers at the time were knowingly violating the Service members Civil Relief Act (SCRA) left and right, breaking the law kicking service members out of their homes—many of whom had the money to stay but hadn’t gotten proper notice due to deployments. And it all happened under a Democratic President who had a Democratic majority in the House and 60 Democratic votes in the Senate.

I specifically remember these Marines and their families asking me how the bankers could get away with it. Didn’t we all just bail these banks out? They would ask. I signed up after 9/11 when these guys were attacked in New York, they would say, how could they forget that and treat us like this? Who is the government supposed to be looking out for, anyway? Why isn’t it us?

“Who is the government supposed to be looking out for, anyway? Why isn’t it us?” That could be the theme of the 2024 election, or it could be the epitaph on the tombstone of the Democratic party. Or, it could be a call to action, a new beginning, a fresh start, a renewed commitment to working toward a better future for humanity.

The entire essay is worthy of a careful read. It is hard to choose what to excerpt from it.

“Everyday people want to tear down the system because it is corrupt, they can’t afford groceries, they can’t buy a house, and they basically have to work until they die.”

The system is not working for most people. Even reform on the scale of the New Deal is probably woefully inadequate to address this crisis. The problem is not with the voters, it is with us.

“The dogmas of the quiet past, are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country.” Abraham Lincoln
154 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
I think you are missing a big factor on why Obama won in 2008. MichMan Dec 2024 #1
Maybe Cirsium Dec 2024 #4
agreed... but many here won't like it. WarGamer Dec 2024 #2
Thanks n/t Cirsium Dec 2024 #3
Whose fault is that Keepthesoulalive Dec 2024 #5
OK Cirsium Dec 2024 #8
'The voters are the problem/stupid' is really and truly what I believe a good majority of DU'ers believe. nt kelly1mm Dec 2024 #13
Yes Cirsium Dec 2024 #65
Since Reagan Keepthesoulalive Dec 2024 #30
I will keep asking Keepthesoulalive Dec 2024 #36
That's easy Cirsium Dec 2024 #72
Hate and fear are base emotions Keepthesoulalive Dec 2024 #79
"Short sighted easily manipulated ignorant Americans are the problem." 3catwoman3 Dec 2024 #32
If so, are we consigned to permanent minority status? Your post is basically 'The voters suck'. nt kelly1mm Dec 2024 #43
What is your solution? You seem to agree the voters got it wrong. Now what? SunSeeker Dec 2024 #56
We get to work Cirsium Dec 2024 #71
OFFS. What "work"? What do we DO? SunSeeker Dec 2024 #75
Ban TikTok! LuvLoogie Dec 2024 #82
There will still be X, Facebook, Reddit, Right Wing podcasts, etc. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #84
Pandering to celebrity billionaires equals victory Blue_Tires Dec 2024 #10
Beyonce, Taylor and Clooney? WarGamer Dec 2024 #40
Melon Husk Blue_Tires Dec 2024 #51
Trump Elon Musk JI7 Dec 2024 #52
How were we "pandering" to them? What did we say/do for them that was different? SunSeeker Dec 2024 #57
I was referring to Donnie's bromance with Elmer Blue_Tires Dec 2024 #149
Yep. The absurd reaction to the election we saw means we need to clean house, tbh. Oneironaut Dec 2024 #16
Post removed Post removed Dec 2024 #6
Wow Cirsium Dec 2024 #9
Communists are not friends of the poor... Steven Maurer Dec 2024 #11
Nice RW talking point, labelling progressives as communists. Fail. Celerity Dec 2024 #12
It's more a communist talking point than a RW one Steven Maurer Dec 2024 #33
OK Cirsium Dec 2024 #70
Apparently I'm a communist. Funny how I've voted Gaugamela Dec 2024 #35
Your premise is founded on false data. W_HAMILTON Dec 2024 #7
That is the problem right there Cirsium Dec 2024 #14
What the hell else do you want? Blue_Tires Dec 2024 #20
Yes Cirsium Dec 2024 #23
I think you might be talking to quite a few of them here Lulu KC Dec 2024 #45
Agreed Cirsium Dec 2024 #64
The multiple student loan forgiveness plans were a giveaway to the educated and a slap in the face to kelly1mm Dec 2024 #15
We had other benefits for the working class Blue_Tires Dec 2024 #18
Yeah, 'The voters suck!' is probably not the slogan we want to go with in 2026/8. nt kelly1mm Dec 2024 #19
You never know, Donnie insults his supporters all the time Blue_Tires Dec 2024 #22
How it works Cirsium Dec 2024 #25
And what exactly does Donnie do to pacify them? Blue_Tires Dec 2024 #28
What? Cirsium Dec 2024 #67
Trump was already president before Blue_Tires Dec 2024 #148
No, not really... WarGamer Dec 2024 #50
God, not this shit again... Blue_Tires Dec 2024 #17
That is probably more helpful going forward than 'Harris did nothing wrong and the voters are stupid' nt kelly1mm Dec 2024 #21
Harris wasn't perfect, but the voters are still fucking stupid Blue_Tires Dec 2024 #24
You just listed the number one stance here. Celerity Dec 2024 #26
But Harris truly did nothing wrong. That is the reality. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #60
Disagree. Celerity Dec 2024 #119
So you're saying she should have lied on the View. Got it. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #126
That is a false frame. She absolutely could have drawn lines of distinction, and certainly had zero need to (in your Celerity Dec 2024 #129
She was asked what Joe did that she would do differently. Those were her actions too. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #141
I never said it was the main reason, but it did not help, IMHO. Thank you, btw, for listing some things she could Celerity Dec 2024 #142
It is ridiculous to fault her for not foreseeing how Republicans would blow up that innocuous comment. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #145
There is only one way to measure that Cirsium Dec 2024 #154
Why do white and rural voters from Keepthesoulalive Dec 2024 #37
Because they feel for not necessarily logical reasons that the Republicans represent them more kelly1mm Dec 2024 #38
You're giving them a hell of a lot of credit. Keepthesoulalive Dec 2024 #41
We Democrats have done a piss poor job of convincing them that they need to stop being manipulated by fear and hubris, kelly1mm Dec 2024 #42
I love when folks know the answers Keepthesoulalive Dec 2024 #44
Ok so you are with the 'voters are dumb' camp. I don't see where we go from here if that it true. I suppose kelly1mm Dec 2024 #46
You tell me what will reach them Keepthesoulalive Dec 2024 #47
Post removed Post removed Dec 2024 #53
They don't know who their local reps are Keepthesoulalive Dec 2024 #59
OK. Then the voters are just too stupid to follow the enlightened path the Democrats are kelly1mm Dec 2024 #87
NOBODY is saying we should do nothing. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #93
I have offered several policy changes (ditch SALT reinstatement, ditch student loan forgiveness, ditch transgender kelly1mm Dec 2024 #96
As adults they must take some responsibility for how they live and how they vote Keepthesoulalive Dec 2024 #97
If you are right then there is nothing we can do and so long as they out breed us they will continue kelly1mm Dec 2024 #99
You keep saying stupid Keepthesoulalive Dec 2024 #106
Lets go with ignorant instead of stupid then. Still not a winning slogan I think. Calling people ignorant, even kelly1mm Dec 2024 #110
Ignorant may be very descriptive but it never comes up in face to face conversation. Keepthesoulalive Dec 2024 #113
I think for 3 presidential cycles (at least) we Democrats will nominate white cis males for the top spot.nt kelly1mm Dec 2024 #117
Unfortunately that is probably true. Keepthesoulalive Dec 2024 #118
Kamala DID promote worker friendly policies, as you acknowledge. But it never got through the RW noise. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #61
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Because if we continue on this path of losing kelly1mm Dec 2024 #112
Nobody is saying we shouldn't change anything. nt SunSeeker Dec 2024 #114
You keep saying this. Yet offer no changes you think need to be made. nt kelly1mm Dec 2024 #116
I am looking for strategies. How do YOU propose we break through the GOP sea of propaganda?? SunSeeker Dec 2024 #120
As I have said like 5 times in this discussion, we were able to raise 1B in a bit over 90 kelly1mm Dec 2024 #122
$1B is peanuts. Trump got many times that in support from dark money. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #127
Thanks for the transphobia! AZSkiffyGeek Dec 2024 #151
Again what is the message that you want to deliver Keepthesoulalive Dec 2024 #48
What are you talking a out? What is "more helpful" than acknowledging reality? nt SunSeeker Dec 2024 #58
If the reality is that 'the voters are stupid' and there is nothing we need to change policy or messaging kelly1mm Dec 2024 #104
NOBODY said "there is nothing we need to change." Please stop with the straw man. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #107
I have stated several policy and messaging changes I think would help. kelly1mm Dec 2024 #109
My position is NOT that "there is nothing we need to change." SunSeeker Dec 2024 #132
You identify an obvious problem but offer no solutions. You wrote kelly1mm Dec 2024 #135
See post 127. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #137
You keep referring to post 127. That is not a proposed solution. That is a critique of my proposed solution. kelly1mm Dec 2024 #138
OFFS SunSeeker Dec 2024 #146
I have read this thread enough berksdem Dec 2024 #150
If I knew what the solution was to overcoming the sea of GOP propaganda, I'd be screaming it from the rooftops. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #153
You will not get through to them Keepthesoulalive Dec 2024 #34
But that is actually not the questions Democrats (who want to win elections) should be asking. The kelly1mm Dec 2024 #39
Very good. H2O Man Dec 2024 #54
So what do we do about the working class voting against their interests? SunSeeker Dec 2024 #62
Pivot away from an emphasis on student loan forgiveness and SALT tax deduction for starters. Also kelly1mm Dec 2024 #66
We did not lose because of SALT, student loan forgiveness and transgender athletes. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #77
The Harris/Waltz team had almost 3X the funding that Trump/Vance did. Perhaps spending less on celebrity kelly1mm Dec 2024 #85
You seem to be claiming Democrats paid money to celebrities to endorse Harris/Walz. You have a source emulatorloo Dec 2024 #86
I should have phrased that better. The Harris/Waltz campaign paid the expenses for celebrities who endorsed her kelly1mm Dec 2024 #88
OFFS. The rallies would have cost millions regardless of the presence of celebrities. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #91
That is total bullshit. Harris had more individual donors. But more MONEY went to support Trump. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #90
THIS. Absolutely. The strategy is still Bannon's "flood the zone with bullshit", but it's repeated and repeated and eppur_se_muova Dec 2024 #102
SALT is important for high earners. The cap is set at 10k so you would have to pay more than that AND overcome kelly1mm Dec 2024 #108
Trump said he wants to restore the full SALT deduction. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #111
I have answered this many times. You don't like my answer. My answer may very well be wrong. kelly1mm Dec 2024 #115
OFFS. I am asking how to overcome the sea of GOP propaganda - which is why we lost.. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #124
WHAT THE ACTUAL F ARE YOU OFFERING AS A SOLUTION? You keep asking 'what can we do to counter kelly1mm Dec 2024 #125
See post 127. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #128
Ok I guess we just give up then. Can't ever overcome GOP propaganda. No need to change policy/messaging kelly1mm Dec 2024 #130
No. Giving up is not an option. We must figure out a way to overcome the GOP propaganda. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #136
Your suggestion - throw me under the bus! AZSkiffyGeek Dec 2024 #152
The 25,000 dollar down payment was a good example for being out of touch questionseverything Dec 2024 #139
No. One of people's biggest complaints is they can't afford to buy a house. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #143
No bank will loan you money for a house if it takes 50% of your pay questionseverything Dec 2024 #144
You can't even qualify for an apartment if the rent takes 50% of your pay. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #147
Correct - this is the media playing uts role Cosmocat Dec 2024 #140
If that is the case then those blue collars are going to get everything they deserve. Vote for the billionaires. JohnSJ Dec 2024 #27
1910 populism was anything but Republican or Conservative bucolic_frolic Dec 2024 #29
Begging your pardon Cirsium Dec 2024 #76
Very powerful and rIght on the money! LearnedHand Dec 2024 #31
Dems did NOT "woo the wealthy corporations very hard." Republicans did. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #63
Oops Cirsium Dec 2024 #80
You do understand that those are individual donations by people who work there, right? emulatorloo Dec 2024 #83
Yep Cirsium Dec 2024 #100
BS. That is employees at the corporation donating to Harris. That is not the Corporation. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #89
You are right Cirsium Dec 2024 #98
Non white working class votes democratic in huge numbers JI7 Dec 2024 #49
Right. H2O Man Dec 2024 #55
Sarah Palin was also held to higher standards than Trump JI7 Dec 2024 #68
I don't disagree with that Cirsium Dec 2024 #69
White people in Ohio were not fooled. They were jealous of the Haitian immigrants JI7 Dec 2024 #73
No doubt Cirsium Dec 2024 #78
No not really Keepthesoulalive Dec 2024 #81
Sadly, I think you're right. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #95
Shapiro checks many boxes. But Newsom. Beshear JI7 Dec 2024 #101
Do you think Vance will let the counting of the Electoral College votes happen if Dems win? nt SunSeeker Dec 2024 #105
Depends on many things. There is a good chance Trump JI7 Dec 2024 #123
I read the entire Lucas Kunce essay you linked to and was disappointed. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #74
President Obama DID get a lot more people "access to decent healthcare", Jack Valentino Dec 2024 #92
Exactly. Obama gave 21 million people health coverage. SunSeeker Dec 2024 #94
And Trump tried to take it away JI7 Dec 2024 #103
The Republicans have a better propaganda firehose. n/t eShirl Dec 2024 #121
Wait a minute wryter2000 Dec 2024 #131
Party leadership "allowed " the rise of right wing media? wryter2000 Dec 2024 #133
'"they are voting against their own interests!" No they aren't ... They voted to blow it all up' is a contradiction muriel_volestrangler Dec 2024 #134
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Is a Grand Realignment Co...