General Discussion

Cirsium

(1,176 posts)

154. There is only one way to measure that

Tue Dec 10, 2024, 01:27 PM

Dec 10

There are no style points in politics. Being right and ~~a dime~~ $5 will get you a cup of coffee - or a dozen eggs. This was a must-win situation - all the politicians said so themselves when they were endlessly begging for money.

All of the post mortem excuses are about factors that were well known long before this fiasco, and it is the worst electoral fiasco in US history. Taking all of those factors into account is the most important part of the job. There certainly were enough overpaid consultants, analysts and operatives. They had a ridiculously huge budget. But they failed, and they failed catastrophically. Pretending that is not the reality will not make that go away.

60-80% of the general public support very progressive positions on all important issues when the questions are framed honestly and without any reference to red-blue partisanship. That means the wind is strongly and consistently at our backs. How do we ever lose any elections?

I have never lost an argument with any right winger on any topic, no matter how "brainwashed" by right wing media, no matter how "stupid" you might think they are. And I do it for free. So it can be done. No more excuses. There is too much at stake.

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Is a Grand Realignment Coming? [View all] Cirsium Dec 8 OP

I think you are missing a big factor on why Obama won in 2008. MichMan Dec 8 #1

Maybe Cirsium Dec 8 #4

agreed... but many here won't like it. WarGamer Dec 8 #2

Thanks n/t Cirsium Dec 8 #3

Whose fault is that Keepthesoulalive Dec 8 #5

OK Cirsium Dec 8 #8

'The voters are the problem/stupid' is really and truly what I believe a good majority of DU'ers believe. nt kelly1mm Dec 8 #13

Yes Cirsium Dec 9 #65

Since Reagan Keepthesoulalive Dec 8 #30

I will keep asking Keepthesoulalive Dec 8 #36

That's easy Cirsium Dec 9 #72

Hate and fear are base emotions Keepthesoulalive Dec 9 #79

"Short sighted easily manipulated ignorant Americans are the problem." 3catwoman3 Dec 8 #32

If so, are we consigned to permanent minority status? Your post is basically 'The voters suck'. nt kelly1mm Dec 8 #43

What is your solution? You seem to agree the voters got it wrong. Now what? SunSeeker Dec 8 #56

We get to work Cirsium Dec 9 #71

OFFS. What "work"? What do we DO? SunSeeker Dec 9 #75

Ban TikTok! LuvLoogie Dec 9 #82

There will still be X, Facebook, Reddit, Right Wing podcasts, etc. SunSeeker Dec 9 #84

Pandering to celebrity billionaires equals victory Blue_Tires Dec 8 #10

Beyonce, Taylor and Clooney? WarGamer Dec 8 #40

Melon Husk Blue_Tires Dec 8 #51

Trump Elon Musk JI7 Dec 8 #52

How were we "pandering" to them? What did we say/do for them that was different? SunSeeker Dec 8 #57

I was referring to Donnie's bromance with Elmer Blue_Tires Dec 9 #149

Yep. The absurd reaction to the election we saw means we need to clean house, tbh. Oneironaut Dec 8 #16

Post removed Post removed Dec 8 #6

Wow Cirsium Dec 8 #9

Communists are not friends of the poor... Steven Maurer Dec 8 #11

Nice RW talking point, labelling progressives as communists. Fail. Celerity Dec 8 #12

It's more a communist talking point than a RW one Steven Maurer Dec 8 #33

OK Cirsium Dec 9 #70

Apparently I'm a communist. Funny how I've voted Gaugamela Dec 8 #35

Your premise is founded on false data. W_HAMILTON Dec 8 #7

That is the problem right there Cirsium Dec 8 #14

What the hell else do you want? Blue_Tires Dec 8 #20

Yes Cirsium Dec 8 #23

I think you might be talking to quite a few of them here Lulu KC Dec 8 #45

Agreed Cirsium Dec 9 #64

The multiple student loan forgiveness plans were a giveaway to the educated and a slap in the face to kelly1mm Dec 8 #15

We had other benefits for the working class Blue_Tires Dec 8 #18

Yeah, 'The voters suck!' is probably not the slogan we want to go with in 2026/8. nt kelly1mm Dec 8 #19

You never know, Donnie insults his supporters all the time Blue_Tires Dec 8 #22

How it works Cirsium Dec 8 #25

And what exactly does Donnie do to pacify them? Blue_Tires Dec 8 #28

What? Cirsium Dec 9 #67

Trump was already president before Blue_Tires Dec 9 #148

No, not really... WarGamer Dec 8 #50

God, not this shit again... Blue_Tires Dec 8 #17

That is probably more helpful going forward than 'Harris did nothing wrong and the voters are stupid' nt kelly1mm Dec 8 #21

Harris wasn't perfect, but the voters are still fucking stupid Blue_Tires Dec 8 #24

You just listed the number one stance here. Celerity Dec 8 #26

But Harris truly did nothing wrong. That is the reality. SunSeeker Dec 8 #60

Disagree. Celerity Dec 9 #119

So you're saying she should have lied on the View. Got it. SunSeeker Dec 9 #126

That is a false frame. She absolutely could have drawn lines of distinction, and certainly had zero need to (in your Celerity Dec 9 #129

She was asked what Joe did that she would do differently. Those were her actions too. SunSeeker Dec 9 #141

I never said it was the main reason, but it did not help, IMHO. Thank you, btw, for listing some things she could Celerity Dec 9 #142

It is ridiculous to fault her for not foreseeing how Republicans would blow up that innocuous comment. SunSeeker Dec 9 #145

There is only one way to measure that Cirsium Dec 10 #154

Why do white and rural voters from Keepthesoulalive Dec 8 #37

Because they feel for not necessarily logical reasons that the Republicans represent them more kelly1mm Dec 8 #38

You're giving them a hell of a lot of credit. Keepthesoulalive Dec 8 #41

We Democrats have done a piss poor job of convincing them that they need to stop being manipulated by fear and hubris, kelly1mm Dec 8 #42

I love when folks know the answers Keepthesoulalive Dec 8 #44

Ok so you are with the 'voters are dumb' camp. I don't see where we go from here if that it true. I suppose kelly1mm Dec 8 #46

You tell me what will reach them Keepthesoulalive Dec 8 #47

Post removed Post removed Dec 8 #53

They don't know who their local reps are Keepthesoulalive Dec 8 #59

OK. Then the voters are just too stupid to follow the enlightened path the Democrats are kelly1mm Dec 9 #87

NOBODY is saying we should do nothing. SunSeeker Dec 9 #93

I have offered several policy changes (ditch SALT reinstatement, ditch student loan forgiveness, ditch transgender kelly1mm Dec 9 #96

As adults they must take some responsibility for how they live and how they vote Keepthesoulalive Dec 9 #97

If you are right then there is nothing we can do and so long as they out breed us they will continue kelly1mm Dec 9 #99

You keep saying stupid Keepthesoulalive Dec 9 #106

Lets go with ignorant instead of stupid then. Still not a winning slogan I think. Calling people ignorant, even kelly1mm Dec 9 #110

Ignorant may be very descriptive but it never comes up in face to face conversation. Keepthesoulalive Dec 9 #113

I think for 3 presidential cycles (at least) we Democrats will nominate white cis males for the top spot.nt kelly1mm Dec 9 #117

Unfortunately that is probably true. Keepthesoulalive Dec 9 #118

Kamala DID promote worker friendly policies, as you acknowledge. But it never got through the RW noise. SunSeeker Dec 9 #61

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Because if we continue on this path of losing kelly1mm Dec 9 #112

Nobody is saying we shouldn't change anything. nt SunSeeker Dec 9 #114

You keep saying this. Yet offer no changes you think need to be made. nt kelly1mm Dec 9 #116

I am looking for strategies. How do YOU propose we break through the GOP sea of propaganda?? SunSeeker Dec 9 #120

As I have said like 5 times in this discussion, we were able to raise 1B in a bit over 90 kelly1mm Dec 9 #122

$1B is peanuts. Trump got many times that in support from dark money. SunSeeker Dec 9 #127

Thanks for the transphobia! AZSkiffyGeek Dec 9 #151

Again what is the message that you want to deliver Keepthesoulalive Dec 8 #48

What are you talking a out? What is "more helpful" than acknowledging reality? nt SunSeeker Dec 8 #58

If the reality is that 'the voters are stupid' and there is nothing we need to change policy or messaging kelly1mm Dec 9 #104

NOBODY said "there is nothing we need to change." Please stop with the straw man. SunSeeker Dec 9 #107

I have stated several policy and messaging changes I think would help. kelly1mm Dec 9 #109

My position is NOT that "there is nothing we need to change." SunSeeker Dec 9 #132

You identify an obvious problem but offer no solutions. You wrote kelly1mm Dec 9 #135

See post 127. SunSeeker Dec 9 #137

You keep referring to post 127. That is not a proposed solution. That is a critique of my proposed solution. kelly1mm Dec 9 #138

OFFS SunSeeker Dec 9 #146

I have read this thread enough berksdem Dec 9 #150

If I knew what the solution was to overcoming the sea of GOP propaganda, I'd be screaming it from the rooftops. SunSeeker Dec 9 #153

You will not get through to them Keepthesoulalive Dec 8 #34

But that is actually not the questions Democrats (who want to win elections) should be asking. The kelly1mm Dec 8 #39

Very good. H2O Man Dec 8 #54

So what do we do about the working class voting against their interests? SunSeeker Dec 9 #62

Pivot away from an emphasis on student loan forgiveness and SALT tax deduction for starters. Also kelly1mm Dec 9 #66

We did not lose because of SALT, student loan forgiveness and transgender athletes. SunSeeker Dec 9 #77

The Harris/Waltz team had almost 3X the funding that Trump/Vance did. Perhaps spending less on celebrity kelly1mm Dec 9 #85

You seem to be claiming Democrats paid money to celebrities to endorse Harris/Walz. You have a source emulatorloo Dec 9 #86

I should have phrased that better. The Harris/Waltz campaign paid the expenses for celebrities who endorsed her kelly1mm Dec 9 #88

OFFS. The rallies would have cost millions regardless of the presence of celebrities. SunSeeker Dec 9 #91

That is total bullshit. Harris had more individual donors. But more MONEY went to support Trump. SunSeeker Dec 9 #90

THIS. Absolutely. The strategy is still Bannon's "flood the zone with bullshit", but it's repeated and repeated and eppur_se_muova Dec 9 #102

SALT is important for high earners. The cap is set at 10k so you would have to pay more than that AND overcome kelly1mm Dec 9 #108

Trump said he wants to restore the full SALT deduction. SunSeeker Dec 9 #111

I have answered this many times. You don't like my answer. My answer may very well be wrong. kelly1mm Dec 9 #115

OFFS. I am asking how to overcome the sea of GOP propaganda - which is why we lost.. SunSeeker Dec 9 #124

WHAT THE ACTUAL F ARE YOU OFFERING AS A SOLUTION? You keep asking 'what can we do to counter kelly1mm Dec 9 #125

See post 127. SunSeeker Dec 9 #128

Ok I guess we just give up then. Can't ever overcome GOP propaganda. No need to change policy/messaging kelly1mm Dec 9 #130

No. Giving up is not an option. We must figure out a way to overcome the GOP propaganda. SunSeeker Dec 9 #136

Your suggestion - throw me under the bus! AZSkiffyGeek Dec 9 #152

The 25,000 dollar down payment was a good example for being out of touch questionseverything Dec 9 #139

No. One of people's biggest complaints is they can't afford to buy a house. SunSeeker Dec 9 #143

No bank will loan you money for a house if it takes 50% of your pay questionseverything Dec 9 #144

You can't even qualify for an apartment if the rent takes 50% of your pay. SunSeeker Dec 9 #147

Correct - this is the media playing uts role Cosmocat Dec 9 #140

If that is the case then those blue collars are going to get everything they deserve. Vote for the billionaires. JohnSJ Dec 8 #27

1910 populism was anything but Republican or Conservative bucolic_frolic Dec 8 #29

Begging your pardon Cirsium Dec 9 #76

Very powerful and rIght on the money! LearnedHand Dec 8 #31

Dems did NOT "woo the wealthy corporations very hard." Republicans did. SunSeeker Dec 9 #63

Oops Cirsium Dec 9 #80

You do understand that those are individual donations by people who work there, right? emulatorloo Dec 9 #83

Yep Cirsium Dec 9 #100

BS. That is employees at the corporation donating to Harris. That is not the Corporation. SunSeeker Dec 9 #89

You are right Cirsium Dec 9 #98

Non white working class votes democratic in huge numbers JI7 Dec 8 #49

Right. H2O Man Dec 8 #55

Sarah Palin was also held to higher standards than Trump JI7 Dec 9 #68

I don't disagree with that Cirsium Dec 9 #69

White people in Ohio were not fooled. They were jealous of the Haitian immigrants JI7 Dec 9 #73

No doubt Cirsium Dec 9 #78

No not really Keepthesoulalive Dec 9 #81

Sadly, I think you're right. SunSeeker Dec 9 #95

Shapiro checks many boxes. But Newsom. Beshear JI7 Dec 9 #101

Do you think Vance will let the counting of the Electoral College votes happen if Dems win? nt SunSeeker Dec 9 #105

Depends on many things. There is a good chance Trump JI7 Dec 9 #123

I read the entire Lucas Kunce essay you linked to and was disappointed. SunSeeker Dec 9 #74

President Obama DID get a lot more people "access to decent healthcare", Jack Valentino Dec 9 #92

Exactly. Obama gave 21 million people health coverage. SunSeeker Dec 9 #94

And Trump tried to take it away JI7 Dec 9 #103

The Republicans have a better propaganda firehose. n/t eShirl Dec 9 #121

Wait a minute wryter2000 Dec 9 #131

Party leadership "allowed " the rise of right wing media? wryter2000 Dec 9 #133

'"they are voting against their own interests!" No they aren't ... They voted to blow it all up' is a contradiction muriel_volestrangler Dec 9 #134