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Trueblue Texan

(3,126 posts)

238. Ok. Let me explain it another way.

Mon Jun 20, 2022, 09:08 PM

Jun 2022

It's more of a grammatical issue than a personal communication issue. Let's say I'm writing a fictional story about a transgendered person who doesn't identify as male or female. Here's two versions of a paragraph about Jerry:

1. Jerry wrapped Jerry's hands around the coffee cup.

2. Jerry wrapped they's hands around the coffee cup.

Both of those are terrible. It's confusing and clunky and does not communicate clearly. But if you were speaking of a cis person, there's not a problem.

Mary wrapped her hands around the coffee cup.

I don't care how someone chooses to identify. I am happy to respect it. But I am not happy with the grammar rules that seem to be in effect right now regarding persons who identify differently. I'm not talking about speaking TO someone I'm talking about speaking about them in 3rd person.

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We have made an adjustment to DU's "No bigotry/insensitivity" rule: please read [View all] EarlG Jun 2022 OP

Ty, EarlG! SheltieLover Jun 2022 #1

Thank you to you both, IngridsLittleAngel and EarlG. Solly Mack Jun 2022 #2

Thank you. It is distressing when people thoughtlessly hurt other people's feelings Walleye Jun 2022 #3

Cudn't agree more;precisely why bigots like JKRowling & other fascists should be promptly cancelled! InAbLuEsTaTe Jun 2022 #240

Good. Behind the Aegis Jun 2022 #4

this right here!!!!! mopinko Jun 2022 #26

I agree! I wish we could have Cha Jun 2022 #42

I would like that too, but would settle for just the "bigotry" rule because it is complicated. Behind the Aegis Jun 2022 #57

Yes! Solly Mack Jun 2022 #101

I could not agree more. The comments from the alerter gave some context that is so often hlthe2b Jun 2022 #200

100% agree. soldierant Jun 2022 #202

Very true! Eom Karma13612 Jun 2022 #280

While we're discussing DU juries, I'd like to know how any juror can possibility judge, Dark n Stormy Knight Jun 2022 #248

Yes. That is generally a "crystal ball" issue. There are undoubtedly some alerters with a "pattern," hlthe2b Jun 2022 #269

And even if the alerters have a pattern, like alerting on every issue they see ... marble falls Jun 2023 #323

I agree, Karma13612 Jun 2022 #281

actually that is not true for real juries Kali Jun 2022 #290

Are those witnesses and evidence somehow Karma13612 Jun 2022 #315

Personally, I would like the jury system here to be abolished. MarcA Jun 2022 #313

You can go to the original OP and look ... marble falls Jun 2023 #324

+1000 n/t FreeState Jun 2022 #292

Thank you EarlG for the information and education. Irish_Dem Jun 2022 #5

Good on ya' EarlG! AndyS Jun 2022 #6

Kudos to IngridsLittleAngel. Irish_Dem Jun 2022 #7

We had a transgender human come out in a group setting. It wasn't easy for this person. LakeArenal Jun 2022 #8

Duly noted... and thanks. AmBlue Jun 2022 #9

Thank you for this clarification, my dear EarlG. CaliforniaPeggy Jun 2022 #10

This YoshidaYui Jun 2022 #12

Progress, not perfection. joshdawg Jun 2022 #87

Working for sure. notinkansas Jun 2022 #252

Thank you, EarlG! Aristus Jun 2022 #11

I think this is a good idea. phylny Jun 2022 #13

nobody is out there persecuting xtians. mopinko Jun 2022 #27

Indeed. Excellent point, mopinko. Sad but true. calimary Jun 2022 #55

Nobody? ruet Jun 2022 #72

fine. nobody here. in this country or on this board. mopinko Jun 2022 #76

Context SpankMe Jun 2022 #246

Using the term "sky-daddy" refers to all religions, deists, all people that believe in God. Dysfunctional Jun 2022 #113

I agree. Maraya1969 Jun 2022 #137

People that believe in a paternalistic monotheism. maxsolomon Jun 2022 #156

"persecuting" & "insulting" are both supposed to be frowned upon oldsoftie Jun 2022 #176

THANK you.. whathehell Apr 2023 #320

Christians aren't a persecuted minority Kali Jun 2022 #36

But... lees1975 Jun 2022 #50

Agree. EVERY INDIVIDUAL should be protected from bigotry/insensitivity. Hortensis Jun 2022 #94

Well said and that is my point, but you phylny Jun 2022 #126

As usual, you say it better than anyone can. Eliot Rosewater Jun 2022 #227

Lol. Thanks, but think I imprinted Jane Austin as a kid. Hortensis Jun 2022 #272

when individual Christian democrats are personally attacked I will be sure to alert on the post. Kali Jun 2022 #206

Thank you! Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2022 #293

I Think That... ruet Jun 2022 #51

I think that I don't vote with my phylny Jun 2022 #117

The no bigoted/insensitivity rule posted specifically mentions religion MichMan Jun 2022 #53

My point and thank you. phylny Jun 2022 #120

God, do you not get why posting this here is a bad idea? obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #52

Post removed Post removed Jun 2022 #58

This message was self-deleted by its author ruet Jun 2022 #64

Pathetic prejudice going on here.... nt LAS14 Jun 2022 #90

Seems pretty clear to me what the revised rules states MichMan Jun 2022 #62

I feel I must ask how this works when the religious belief of Republicans NullTuples Jun 2022 #224

Yup. Thanks for this. nt LAS14 Jun 2022 #84

I don't accommodate this anymore. Duncan Grant Jun 2022 #106

Whether you accommodate this or not doesn't phylny Jun 2022 #124

Start a separate thread in GD, please. Duncan Grant Jun 2022 #128

It's not about "me." phylny Jun 2022 #129

There's a time to step up and a time to step back. Duncan Grant Jun 2022 #130

Next time I need advice on posting here phylny Jun 2022 #131

I have temporarily blocked you from posting in this forum EarlG Jun 2022 #135

Attacking ideas is not attacking the person who Voltaire2 Jun 2022 #143

Do you often ask "Don't all lives matter?" yardwork Jun 2022 #181

Thanks for this Sunsky Jun 2022 #188

That's different. fescuerescue Jun 2022 #199

Excellent. MontanaMama Jun 2022 #14

Right there with you!! InAbLuEsTaTe Jun 2022 #237

Thank you. irisblue Jun 2022 #15

Thank you. momta Jun 2022 #16

Kickin' Faux pas Jun 2022 #17

They've been doing a good job of moderating, but it's likely been a lot of extra work NullTuples Jun 2022 #149

There are no moderators on DU. There is a jury system. We are all moderators. yardwork Jun 2022 #183

It would help if jurors were told the outcome on the cases they're called to judge. TheRickles Jun 2022 #185

I agree with your point. There is no feedback. How am I doing as a juror? 70sEraVet Jun 2022 #209

+100000000 Karma13612 Jun 2022 #282

Yes, but entire discussions have been taken down. I assumed that was not due to a jurist NullTuples Jun 2022 #226

You're right, that would be volunteer Hosts. yardwork Jun 2022 #274

If an OP itself is taken down, the rest of the discussion stays up, but is locked. Makes sense to me marble falls Jun 2023 #322

Keep an eye out whenever there is any news blurb Ms. Toad Jun 2022 #175

Not only that vercetti2021 Jun 2022 #228

Correct IngridsLittleAngel Jun 2022 #231

Yep vercetti2021 Jun 2022 #233

I'm already anticipating that possibility IngridsLittleAngel Jun 2022 #256

Wow! Faux pas Jun 2022 #278

TY for this bluestarone Jun 2022 #18

I am very happy to see this. MuseRider Jun 2022 #19

Thank you! GoneOffShore Jun 2022 #20

Solidly progressive. Torchlight Jun 2022 #21

Good! BumRushDaShow Jun 2022 #22

Best of luck with this. William769 Jun 2022 #23

What's deadnaming? wryter2000 Jun 2022 #24

Definition billh58 Jun 2022 #78

Thanks wryter2000 Jun 2022 #102

Here's some information about deadnaming: EarlG Jun 2022 #80

I assume it's using the name the person was given originally but no longer uses Ocelot II Jun 2022 #82

Thanks for this, EarlG. greatauntoftriplets Jun 2022 #25

Let's hope so! William769 Jun 2022 #33

We've been working on him (my brother-in-law) greatauntoftriplets Jun 2022 #56

I know a good few like that. And thats why he lost. oldsoftie Jun 2022 #173

It took some convincing because he's always voted for president. greatauntoftriplets Jun 2022 #186

To win you HAVE to keep your original voters. he started bleeding them. oldsoftie Jun 2022 #191

I am unclear on what this means... LiberatedUSA Jun 2022 #28

What if the unsensitive comment is made by a Democratic public figure? MichMan Jun 2022 #38

It's really just a common sense reminder EarlG Jun 2022 #75

Some of us jurors do not understand what's wrong with the post complained of. Shrike47 Jun 2022 #29

This is good to know, thank you! arthritisR_US Jun 2022 #30

Thank You so much EarlG.... Tikki Jun 2022 #31

K&R spanone Jun 2022 #32

Forgive my ignorance please, but what is "deadnaming"? nolabear Jun 2022 #34

I didn't know either... Moosepoop Jun 2022 #40

Thanks! nolabear Jun 2022 #70

"Deadnaming" is using a trans person's name prior to transition. Behind the Aegis Jun 2022 #41

Thanks. I kind of figured. nolabear Jun 2022 #71

That's when you call Caitlyn Jenner by her former name instead of her current one. LonePirate Jun 2022 #47

Gotcha. Thanks. Makes sense. nolabear Jun 2022 #74

Thank you, EarlG. This place is an ongoing education Hekate Jun 2022 #35

One of the biggest plusses on DUs side is its embrace of diversity. lpbk2713 Jun 2022 #37

Thank you, EarlG!!! Maeve Jun 2022 #39

Thank you!!!! Scottie Mom Jun 2022 #43

Maybe you could get EndlessWire Jun 2022 #44

are you serious? Kali Jun 2022 #207

Oh boy obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #265

Thank You, EarlG & IngridsLittleAngel! Cha Jun 2022 #45

It would be nice if those of us who had posts hidden for calling out transphobia obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #46

+ 1000 I hope earlg will take note of this. Ms. Toad Jun 2022 #178

I've had similar experiences AZSkiffyGeek Jun 2022 #198

I'm usually firm, but civil - Ms. Toad Jun 2022 #201

Thank you Earl G. and IngridsLittleAngel. Moosepoop Jun 2022 #48

Bravo EG! 👍🏻 Floyd R. Turbo Jun 2022 #49

Thank you. This shit has been driving me up a wall lately. Hassin Bin Sober Jun 2022 #54

❤ littlemissmartypants Jun 2022 #59

big+ llashram Jun 2022 #60

This message was self-deleted by its author 867-5309. Jun 2022 #61

What does that have to do with the OP? obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #67

This message was self-deleted by its author 867-5309. Jun 2022 #79

Oh, I see -- you are pushing obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #83

I'm wondering about Hillary Clinton's recent statement that she thought, pnwmom Jun 2022 #63

What if a similar comment is posted & someone is critical of it being said?? MichMan Jun 2022 #91

I'm avoiding commenting, too much stuff I have to look up like Captain Zero Jun 2022 #261

The rule does not appear to preclude this. Jirel Jun 2022 #112

I'm going to ask a genuine question IngridsLittleAngel Jun 2022 #158

I don't think anybody said Hillary's carry more weight. Lots of posts here get ignored, pnwmom Jun 2022 #218

I'll just leave it at this: IngridsLittleAngel Jun 2022 #221

Last Wednesday FreepFryer Jun 2022 #230

And I'll add to that: President Biden on March 30, 2022 (Transgender Day of Visibility): IngridsLittleAngel Jun 2022 #232

I admit to having problems with the "they/them" pronouns. LonePirate Jun 2022 #65

Actually, from a grammar standpoint, single but indeterminate individuals are also "they." TygrBright Jun 2022 #96

Ill bet you use a singular they more often than you think. Chellee Jun 2022 #147

A bit of context: NullTuples Jun 2022 #160

ME TOOOOO!!!! Trueblue Texan Jun 2022 #192

Omg why do you keep posting this? obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #267

Second-hand pronouns Tree-Hugger Jun 2022 #305

Singular they has been used as centuries obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #266

I really like They/Them DBoon Jun 2022 #312

thank ya's ! freedom mean's " all people - not just a few " ! cloudboy07 Jun 2022 #66

Post removed Post removed Jun 2022 #68

Do you not get that this post breaks the new rule? obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #81

I told you I'm in trouble now. n/t SleeplessinSoCal Jun 2022 #86

Wow, you are really proud of this obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #89

Works for me... 2naSalit Jun 2022 #69

Earl, are you one of the people ... Jeebo Jun 2022 #73

Some info on juries Yonnie3 Jun 2022 #95

Personal opinions will always enter into the equation EarlG Jun 2022 #99

What is the recourse, then, for those battered by transphobic or homophobic posts left standing? Ms. Toad Jun 2022 #184

+1000 Karma13612 Jun 2022 #283

Post removed Post removed Jun 2022 #77

"life choices" -- what about being trans is a life choice? obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #88

Yeah, referring to an element of someone's identity as a "life choice" could be offensive. TygrBright Jun 2022 #100

That is so fcuking annoying I can't even Jilly_in_VA Jun 2022 #165

I know, I know, Jilly... TygrBright Jun 2022 #170

There is only one "choice" when it comes to this.. IngridsLittleAngel Jun 2022 #168

I commend you for this service to DU and you have my full support!! InAbLuEsTaTe Jun 2022 #235

This is a step in the right direction but may not be enough. yardwork Jun 2022 #85

Good things happen. Duncan Grant Jun 2022 #92

LOUD APPLAUSE!!!! n/t TygrBright Jun 2022 #93

Good idea. FoxNewsSucks Jun 2022 #97

Sometimes we are in need of enlightenment, or at least reminders. Ocelot II Jun 2022 #98

Having read this thread, I see I'm not the only person that didn't know what deadnaming is... Takket Jun 2022 #103

Even if we didn't know the term wryter2000 Jun 2022 #109

This. Exactly this. IngridsLittleAngel Jun 2022 #210

Such an excellent point, one that even conservatives with names like, NullTuples Jun 2022 #245

I did wonder EarlG Jun 2022 #115

I would suggest putting it in the context of how journalists are expected to handle it: AP Stylebook hlthe2b Jun 2022 #190

Excellent. vanlassie Jun 2022 #104

Thank you. scarletlib Jun 2022 #105

Thank you vercetti2021 Jun 2022 #107

I also strongly support this new rule/clarification of existing rules LetMyPeopleVote Jun 2022 #108

Thank you. I alerted on a post that was clearly anti-Trans...and it was not hidden...I get that some Demsrule86 Jun 2022 #110

In this thread? Same obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #116

Which post? EarlG Jun 2022 #139

Oops i didn't refresh the thread obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #153

Sadly that's pretty common AZSkiffyGeek Jun 2022 #140

Post removed Post removed Jun 2022 #169

Amen! Jack-o-Lantern Jun 2022 #111

Post removed Post removed Jun 2022 #114

Oh brother obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #119

FYI: Posting privileges revoked Behind the Aegis Jun 2022 #125

Member for 10.5 years dpibel Jun 2022 #132

never a good idea to show your ass in the owners thread. mopinko Jun 2022 #148

Words of wisdom n/t Yonnie3 Jun 2022 #159

You have no idea how hormones work do you? vercetti2021 Jun 2022 #123

Thank you for updating the No bigotry/insensitivity" rule with the help of IngridsLittleAngel yaesu Jun 2022 #118

When someone tells me their name, that name is what I call that person. MineralMan Jun 2022 #121

Well, but what if you keep having to repeat the name, Trueblue Texan Jun 2022 #189

I ask, if there's any question. When talking to that person, though, MineralMan Jun 2022 #205

Recommend. sheshe2 Jun 2022 #122

Can I still be mean to TFG and Mrs. TFG? COL Mustard Jun 2022 #127

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!! rainin Jun 2022 #133

TY! Lithos Jun 2022 #134

Thank you for this very helpful spotlight mahina Jun 2022 #136

Thank you, EarlG wendyb-NC Jun 2022 #138

I appreciate the rule clarification hueymahl Jun 2022 #141

Thank you. Voltaire2 Jun 2022 #142

well done jcgoldie Jun 2022 #144

TY, being extra careful here. Magoo48 Jun 2022 #145

I have a transgender grandson Frances Jun 2022 #146

Thank you, EarlG! crickets Jun 2022 #150

Thank you EarlG and IngridsLittleAngel. Well done. c-rational Jun 2022 #151

Thank you! n/t KatK Jun 2022 #152

This message was self-deleted by its author CurtEastPoint Jun 2022 #154

You're welcome everyone and thank you EarlG IngridsLittleAngel Jun 2022 #155

Thank you for stepping up, Tarc Jun 2022 #171

Left or right, blue or red, all we can do in life is learn and grow IngridsLittleAngel Jun 2022 #215

K&R. +1000. KY_EnviroGuy Jun 2022 #174

You're welcome IngridsLittleAngel Jun 2022 #216

So sorry to hear about this problem. Callalily Jun 2022 #157

Sounds good. Martin68 Jun 2022 #161

From a trans woman & parent of a trans teen...thank you so much for this. NullTuples Jun 2022 #162

Sorry I was recently asked to be on a jury.I did not understand the rd2 and star wars If there was r Oppaloopa Jun 2022 #163

K&R uppityperson Jun 2022 #164

thank you so much! Javaman Jun 2022 #166

this is why I keep donating to DU Skittles Jun 2022 #167

Thank you, Ms. Toad Jun 2022 #172

Thank you EarlG and IngridsLittleAngel. Very nicely handled! Totally Tunsie Jun 2022 #177

Reaffirms my fragile membership in the PTL Club. KY_EnviroGuy Jun 2022 #179

Thank you. This has been a long time coming. Autumn Jun 2022 #180

Thanks for the clarity... Trueblue Texan Jun 2022 #182

Ask them how they want to be called AZSkiffyGeek Jun 2022 #203

I don't have a problem when I'm directly addressing them. Trueblue Texan Jun 2022 #234

Not really AZSkiffyGeek Jun 2022 #241

No problem Tree-Hugger Jun 2022 #297

No, unless you can show me where trans folks aren't allowed have grammar rules applied to them obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #309

I know some situations can be confusing. Best advice? Ask them IngridsLittleAngel Jun 2022 #213

This is not my problem. Trueblue Texan Jun 2022 #236

I've probably forgotten half of my grammar over the decades IngridsLittleAngel Jun 2022 #255

It is are, not is obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #262

OK, that Karma13612 Jun 2022 #284

It is are, not is obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #263

they are bringing over the photo album Kali Jun 2022 #217

Ok. Let me explain it another way. Trueblue Texan Jun 2022 #238

You are elevating "rules" over people. Ms. Toad Jun 2022 #244

Do not project your own biases onto others. Trueblue Texan Jun 2022 #268

Perhaps you don't have the life experience to understand how your comments came across. Ms. Toad Jun 2022 #275

+1 obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #306

'Less offensive manner" Tree-Hugger Jun 2022 #299

... Kali Jun 2022 #247

Passive voice, sentence 1. Trueblue Texan Jun 2022 #270

Just stop it obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #307

Why do you keep using improper grammar when talking about this? obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #264

Well it's because I don't know the correct grammar! Trueblue Texan Jun 2022 #271

You literally know the correct grammar already obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #273

Jesus. Trueblue Texan Jun 2022 #277

But you do understand the grammar re: they obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #291

Textbook microagression and sealioning nt AZSkiffyGeek Jun 2022 #295

+++ quaint Jun 2022 #302

I suppose it's nice to have a perfect example in the thread about what not to do AZSkiffyGeek Jun 2022 #303

I really hope EarlG sees this thread obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #304

But...but... Tree-Hugger Jun 2022 #311

I'll try to answer this fairly... IngridsLittleAngel Jun 2022 #308

I sincerely appreciate this explanation. Trueblue Texan Jun 2022 #316

You're welcome IngridsLittleAngel Jun 2022 #317

3. Jerry wrapped their hands around the coffee cup. (Maybe?) eom Karma13612 Jun 2022 #285

A hypothetical. Saviolo Jun 2022 #289

"Transgendered" Tree-Hugger Jun 2022 #296

Thank you for this obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #298

No problem Tree-Hugger Jun 2022 #300

I agree obamanut2012 Jun 2022 #310

Awesome! ArizonaLib Jun 2022 #187

K&R ! stonecutter357 Jun 2022 #193

Thank you, EarlG Alice Kramden Jun 2022 #194

Acknowledged. Good idea. PatrickforB Jun 2022 #195

Bravo HAB911 Jun 2022 #196

Post removed Post removed Jun 2022 #197

WayTaGo DU, WayTaGo Admins! Stinky The Clown Jun 2022 #204

Thank you. AverageOldGuy Jun 2022 #208

Post removed Post removed Jun 2022 #211

Thanks. Great idea FloridaBlues Jun 2022 #212

This is wonderful! AwakeAtLast Jun 2022 #214

This is great, and it will make DU even stronger. Politicub Jun 2022 #219

thank you for this gopiscrap Jun 2022 #220

K&R !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! n/t RKP5637 Jun 2022 #222

Thankyou!!! marble falls Jun 2022 #223

This is a good change. PTWB Jun 2022 #225

You know who doesnt have this problem? Eliot Rosewater Jun 2022 #229

Last, but not least..... BidenRocks Jun 2022 #239

You rock. Keep up the good work, n/t. Scruffy1 Jun 2022 #242

Thank you! Mad_Machine76 Jun 2022 #243

❤️ ✿❧🌿❧✿ ❤️ Lucinda Jun 2022 #249

EarlG.... Upthevibe Jun 2022 #250

100% agree!!! I myself have been attacked here on DU, for different reasons... CaptainTruth Jun 2022 #251

Thank you. TDale313 Jun 2022 #253

K&R ismnotwasm Jun 2022 #254

Thank you, and I apologize for any insensitivity MyMission Jun 2022 #257

Thank you so very much! LostOne4Ever Jun 2022 #258

Yes! Yes! Yes! Lunabell Jun 2022 #259

Everybody deserves respect. Aussie105 Jun 2022 #260

Thank You! MindHowYouGo Jun 2022 #276

Makes sense! Karma13612 Jun 2022 #287

I greatly appreciate this, EarlG Metatron Jun 2022 #279

Thank you. You expressed this far more tactfully, and graciously, Roisin Ni Fiachra Jun 2022 #286

Thank you both for taking the time and care to educate us all on this important issue RainCaster Jun 2022 #288

Thank you! FreeState Jun 2022 #294

Thank you Tree-Hugger Jun 2022 #301

One reason why DU is my favorite place to post ificandream Jun 2022 #314

A day (or 3 ) late, and a dollar short- Karma13612 Jun 2022 #318

Thank you, EarlG wendyb-NC Jun 2022 #319

Thnkyou, thankyou, thankyou. marble falls Jun 2023 #321

Good move. Thanks riversedge Jun 2023 #325