Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Denzil_DC

(7,941 posts)
19. But these issues aren't separable. We are linked and mutually interdependent in a finite world.
Tue Oct 24, 2017, 04:42 PM
Oct 2017

It's the terms on which we interact and the degree to which we do it that can lead to conflict.

The extreme alternative in terms of separation would be the idiotic, self-destructive post-imperial strutting that's accompanied the UK's drive for Brexit and an ill-conceived isolationism that embraces the fantasy of a country being granted everything it desires from some sense of misplaced entitlement while ceding little or no ground in return.

If Scotland wanted to behave "selfishly", as you frame it, then it would have kept a low profile during the current Catalonian unrest. Much has been made in the past of the likelihood of Rajoy opposing any idea of Scotland's accession to the EU if Brexit proceeds and another referendum leads to Scottish independence. He in fact chose to differentiate the Catalan and Scottish situations, but he doesn't seem like the sort of leader one wants to cross when he can wield a veto. So the selfish, conveniently diplomatic course would have been to cravenly remain silent.

As it happened, Sturgeon was one of the first leaders within a EU country to express public concern at the violence surrounding the Catalan referendum and the intransigence of the Rajoy regime, closely followed by Belgium, then some of the Nordic countries.

Note that neither she nor I have stated categorically that Catalonia should be independent. The principle of self-determination means precisely that. But if Rajoy is so certain of the majority Catalan opinion, then logic would dictate that he'd let a referendum proceed and not send in the stormtroopers against nonviolent crowds.

As it is, it looks like there'll be elections in Catalonia in a few months' time. Unless Rajoy chooses to incarcerate the entire leadership of all the opposition parties in that region or restrict voting rights or otherwise suppress turnout by whatever means, then maybe we'll have a clearer indication of public opinion.

It is good to see all such groups supporting Catalan and Spanish civil society Ghost Dog Oct 2017 #1
It's the Spanish government that is anti-democratic Ken Burch Oct 2017 #2
Well, then, I have to recommend you re-check (and improve the quality of) your sources. Ghost Dog Oct 2017 #3
(on edit)I read that editorial Ken Burch Oct 2017 #4
"Risking their lives" is a massive exaggeration, but par for the propaganda course... Ghost Dog Oct 2017 #5
It can't be democratic to suppress Catalan sovereigntism by state violence. Ken Burch Oct 2017 #6
Please read more widely, reflect more deeply. Ghost Dog Oct 2017 #7
In Spain, the "Rule of Law" is an essentialky Carlist/Fascist concept. Ken Burch Oct 2017 #10
You know these things how, may I ask? Ghost Dog Oct 2017 #11
Oh, I see. What a silly question to pose to a post-truther Ghost Dog Oct 2017 #15
I don't think quoting an opinion piece by a non-Catalan author, Denzil_DC Oct 2017 #8
Madrid-based El Pais is no more a "state mouthpiece" than London-based Guardian is. Ghost Dog Oct 2017 #9
It was not always part of Spain. Ken Burch Oct 2017 #12
It was then a part of Spain. That was a civil war (about Monarchy), with much outside interference. Ghost Dog Oct 2017 #13
Really? The Guardian's even worse than I thought then (which is pretty bad). Denzil_DC Oct 2017 #14
Ah, a little nuance Ghost Dog Oct 2017 #16
Not sure I get your drift, nor appreciate your tone. Denzil_DC Oct 2017 #17
Fine. If it's all about the selfish interests of (some people of) Scotland, Ghost Dog Oct 2017 #18
But these issues aren't separable. We are linked and mutually interdependent in a finite world. Denzil_DC Oct 2017 #19
UK 'won't recognise' Catalan independence T_i_B Oct 2017 #20
A Tory government backed Franco in the Thirties. Ken Burch Oct 2017 #21
Latest Discussions»Region Forums»United Kingdom»Scots launch Catalan Defe...»Reply #19